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Ice needs a defensive buff next gen

#11Callista08Posted 4/3/2013 5:32:35 PM
Fiction: Ice and all the current type charts are balance.

Fact: Ice does deserve a buff

Fact: Poison deserves a buff.

Fiction: The buffs should be completely unbalanced

Lesson: They should be changed but within reason. Not all logic should apply, but using logic as a basis for your side of the argument will DEF welcome in logic to defend the other side making you look more dumb than you hoped. Both sides have points but their needs to be a middle ground. Face it things like Poison and Ice deserve more resistances, so we can see more types be utilized in more manors.
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#12JDM_JevPosted 4/3/2013 5:33:07 PM
DarkDragon386 posted...
TIGERJACKS0N- posted...
No, leave ice the way it is, it's that way for a reason. ice is fragile and that's how it is represented in this game. not everything needs to be god tier, everything needs drawbacks & such


This.

Ice is meh on the defensive side while amazing on the offensive side.


Yeah but most-everything has access to Ice moves as is, and the special attackers that don't usually run it as their HP type since a lot of potent threats are 4x weak to it. There are almost no ice pokemon worth a damn.

If only ice pokemon could use ice moves it wouldn't be such a big deal that ice pokemon themselves suck. Since they are totally outclassed by water types when you get right down to it as water types have wider movepools, the same resists, less weaknesses and can use all of the same unique moves.

The steel weakness bugs me the most out of all its weaknesses though. Primarily because its totally unneeded what with steel being above and beyond the best defensive typing and it being illogical and all.
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#13LenneValkiryePosted 4/4/2013 1:23:00 AM(edited)
CrystalKing5426 posted...


The problem is that Ice as a Pokemon type is downright unusable.


Not true in the least. Kyurem-W is a complete monster in ubers, while Abomasnow, Cloyster, Mamoswine, Kyurem, Kyurem-B and Weavile see regular use in OU.
In the lower tiers where hail is the only permanent weather ice types are very common and effective, such as Rotom-F and Stallrein.

Also, Ice STAB is a big deal.
This is easily observed with Donphan's Ice Shard being unable to OHKO things 4x weak to Ice, while Mamoswine and Weavile have no problems.

It also should be noted that Dewgong's STAB Ice Beam is as strong as Mewtwo's.
Dewgong has 70 base Sp.Atk, Mewtwo has 154.
Even Kyogre can't 2HKO Ferrothorn with Specs Ice Beam, while most Ice types have no trouble 2HKOing it. If this doesn't prove that water types don't outclass them offensively I don't know what else does.
#14pokemon2pokerPosted 4/4/2013 1:18:09 AM
Ice needs a defense boost in hail, similar to rock's special defense boost in sand.
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#15KitschgardenerPosted 4/4/2013 1:18:38 AM
From: Lexifox | #006
CakeOfLies posted...
How many times do I have to explain this?

If water is still a liquid, it's warmer than the ice it's touching.
If ice is touched by something that's warmer than it, it warms up and melts.
So if water is touching ice, the ice melts.
Ice should not resist Water.


This is real life logic. We need RPG logic.

DND logic?
#16SephirothtPosted 4/4/2013 1:19:28 AM
Why next gen, rather have it this gen.
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#17LenneValkiryePosted 4/4/2013 1:42:33 AM(edited)
Another thing to keep in mind is that ice types in doubles (Nintendo's official metagame) are much better than in singles.

In doubles Hail is one of the dominant weathers as Blizzard is by far the best spread attack, Abomasnow resists Discharge and Surf and SR is not nearly as common there as it is in singles (so it has many opportunities to switch in).

A small buff to hail in singles might translate to an enormous improvement in doubles.
Considering that they nerfed Explosion because it was just too effective in doubles I wouldn't be surprised if hail has been kept in check because they don't want it to break that metagame.

Even Smogon users, who are well known for having nothing but contempt towards any ice-type not named Mamoswine, are admitting that Blizzspammers in doubles are seriously scary to face.
#18CharizardFirePosted 4/4/2013 8:49:54 AM
From: CakeOfLies | #004
How many times do I have to explain this?

If water is still a liquid, it's warmer than the ice it's touching.
If ice is touched by something that's warmer than it, it warms up and melts.
So if water is touching ice, the ice melts.
Ice should not resist Water.

You are ignoring a lot of variables.

That is what happens when an ice cube sits in a glass of room-temperature water, but icebergs in the polar seas have no problem staying frozen.

Also, at 32 degrees Fahrenheit (0 degrees Celsius to metric-users), liquid water and ice can coexist - the water will not freeze, and the ice will not melt.
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#19JDM_JevPosted 4/4/2013 1:35:13 PM(edited)
LenneValkirye posted...
Another thing to keep in mind is that ice types in doubles (Nintendo's official metagame) are much better than in singles.

In doubles Hail is one of the dominant weathers as Blizzard is by far the best spread attack, Abomasnow resists Discharge and Surf and SR is not nearly as common there as it is in singles (so it has many opportunities to switch in).

A small buff to hail in singles might translate to an enormous improvement in doubles.
Considering that they nerfed Explosion because it was just too effective in doubles I wouldn't be surprised if hail has been kept in check because they don't want it to break that metagame.

Even Smogon users, who are well known for having nothing but contempt towards any ice-type not named Mamoswine, are admitting that Blizzspammers in doubles are seriously scary to face.


I don't think anyone logical would agree with a tweak along the lines of giving a defensive boost in hail. The weather is fine as is really. It essentially guarantees residual damage and gives 100% accuracy to one of the most powerful moves in the game. I'm pretty sure most people would agree that the only real buff one could give it to keep it viable/popular in the face of the more-versatile sand/sun/rain is to make ice less of a curse as a defensive type. Maybe give it some abusing abilities along the lines of sand rush/sand force/dry skin.

If rain is ok to break singles, I don't see how hail is too unfair in dubs to provide any improvement to ice's defensive abilities.
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#20Emerald_MeliosPosted 4/5/2013 4:22:37 PM
I think Ice should resist Flying attacks.