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So why does everyone hate smogon?

#71BountyanPosted 4/28/2013 2:25:11 PM(edited)
keyos27 posted...

I decided not to...although I will say this. I think "USAGE" is so stupid. Tiers are determined by USAGE? Does Smogon know the exact number of Pokemon players in North America?


For crap's sake...they don't get the usage of EVERY SINGLE Pokemon player in North America. They get usage stats off of their own server on Showdown. That's where tiers come from.

keyos27 posted...
but without tiers, they wouldn't be used at all and people will just stop playing competitive altogether whining that it's the same thing over and over again.

Forgot to post another major prejudice, there are bunch of people who play competitively while having less-effective Pokemon in their team without erratic and elongated tiers of Smogon but just with one ban list. People aren't trying hard enough to pull the full potential.


And there are bunch of competitive players who do horribly trying to use their NU and RU Pokemon in OU. So what? If you want to play that way, just play in OU and use lower tiered Pokemon. And a Pokemon being in a lower tier doesn't necessarily mean it isn't viable in OU. It just means exactly what it is..it's they're under, rarely, or never used, for whatever reason it may be. It's kind of funny how your first post was "it kills creativity," but you're doing exactly that by getting rid of tiers and LIMITING options for people.


Ubergeneral3 posted...
The pokemon metagame is not in a good place. I don't understand smogon's logic. Like other games imbalences should be edited out in patches. Yet smogon seemed to want their game to be a perfect recreation, where as I think pokemon should be buffed and nerfed, so that more pokemon are viable in OU play. Many pokemon with bad flaws could be much better if they got a new move, had a few stats moved around, or a metagame changing move had it's effect changed (stealth rock....)

Is there anyone that thinks the way I do and wants to buff and change things instead of making tiers?


The point of Smogon is to have a balanced metagame while still playing by the limits of the actual game. It takes away the entire point and just becomes a glorified ROM hack if they start editing Pokemon to balance them.
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#72BountyanPosted 4/28/2013 2:15:36 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#73Grammar_manPosted 4/28/2013 2:33:17 PM
BolognaSammich posted...
nothing wrong with smogon but their userbase is really stuck up and condescending, so i try to avoid posting on their forums.

which is ironic bc chaos is actually laid back and cool


Smogon has it's fair share of elitists.

Then again, on no other site have I ever found so many "casual elitists" as on Gamefaqs. Especially the SSB boards, but the Pokemon is probably second.

Note that the line below mostly describes the SSB boards:

"Tournament players should be forced to play our way! Never mind I just said the reason they are elitist are that they are trying to FORCE their way of play down or throats! We should be able to play any way we want! Sakurai should take away the item option so that the Tournament players must play with items!"


Thank the stars the pokemon Board isn't that bad...
#74ThatPersonGuyPosted 4/28/2013 2:40:00 PM
Grammar_man posted...
BolognaSammich posted...
nothing wrong with smogon but their userbase is really stuck up and condescending, so i try to avoid posting on their forums.

which is ironic bc chaos is actually laid back and cool


Smogon has it's fair share of elitists.

Then again, on no other site have I ever found so many "casual elitists" as on Gamefaqs. Especially the SSB boards, but the Pokemon is probably second.

Note that the line below mostly describes the SSB boards:

"Tournament players should be forced to play our way! Never mind I just said the reason they are elitist are that they are trying to FORCE their way of play down or throats! We should be able to play any way we want! Sakurai should take away the item option so that the Tournament players must play with items!"


Thank the stars the pokemon Board isn't that bad...



*groans*

Will you stop badmouthing the SSB boards? No one ever says that, save for the occasional troll post. What, are all you just a bunch of Charizard worshiping idiots who drool at fictional characters?

/rant
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#75pokemonfreak97Posted 4/28/2013 2:40:38 PM
Rat_a_tat posted...
People hate Smogon because it goes against one of the key principles of the franchise - that any Pokemon or strategy can be effective if you just try hard enough. It's the very hard sober "Yin" to the happy, hippy-esque "Yang" that everything else in the series presents.

Games:
Karen: "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best."

Anime:
Paul "A pathetic trainer and his weak Pokemon..."
Ash: "WHATEVA, I do what I want!" *wins* [paraphrased]

Smogon:
"Yeah, no. If you really want to use your crap Pokemon, make sure you only play in the crap league with all the other crap that's crap. Using the power of math and simulators we've concluded that this handful of 'mons up here are the best. I'd give you some graphs and flowcharts, but suffice to say you should just use these guys along with the movesets we've prepared and forget about your Charizard.

Oh wait, you wanna play "doubles"? What's that? Sounds kinda like Double Team. That moves banned y'know. Cuz we said so. Trust us, we're experts in things that aren't fair."


1. Pokémon are banned in tiers lower than the one they're in, not higher.

2. Yes, they do the math. Would you rather they analyze the Pokédex entries and tell you which Pokémon are officially strongest, then group them like that, or do you at least recognize that that particular suggestion is idiotic?

3. So they don't follow Karen's statement. Not a law. Also, they don't ban you from using weak Pokémon; you can use a Magikarp in Ubers.

4. Again, you can use the Pokémon in low tiers anywhere.

5. They don't force you to use movesets they've prepared; I'd bet anything that their best players use non-listed sets, which aren't listed because they aren't prominent enough (because only a few people actually use them).

6. They have doubles metagames. Don't know where you got that from. Also, Double Team either is currently or was being tested in Ubers, and I know at some point they tested Moody there too.

Come back with actual, you know, facts.
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#76SerperiorThanUPosted 4/28/2013 7:12:25 PM
Grammar_man posted...
BolognaSammich posted...
nothing wrong with smogon but their userbase is really stuck up and condescending, so i try to avoid posting on their forums.

which is ironic bc chaos is actually laid back and cool


Smogon has it's fair share of elitists.

Then again, on no other site have I ever found so many "casual elitists" as on Gamefaqs. Especially the SSB boards, but the Pokemon is probably second.

Note that the line below mostly describes the SSB boards:

"Tournament players should be forced to play our way! Never mind I just said the reason they are elitist are that they are trying to FORCE their way of play down or throats! We should be able to play any way we want! Sakurai should take away the item option so that the Tournament players must play with items!"


Thank the stars the pokemon Board isn't that bad...


Casual elitists are called scrubs. They hate that people listen to something else even if that something else is a collective community filled with many people together making decisions and just wants everyone to go by their rules. And that is Pokememes in a nutshell.
#77xKitsunexPosted 4/28/2013 7:48:08 PM
i dont
#78GiftedACIIIPosted 4/28/2013 7:49:28 PM
keyos27 posted...


Were you really so desperate to find someone on your side that you had to defend BlazingRain? I'm only trolling him because he showed that after someone makes one argument he'll go on the offensive and attack personally.It wasn't me that threw the first stone. He tried to pretend as if his social life had anything to do with this argument which just showed how he is incapable of debating. But since you at least try to make valid points I won't be doing the same to you.
Ok, first off, my point about Nintendo's list being "horrible" was just saying that Nintendo allowed far less of people's favorites and their item clause is even less reasonable than an evasion clause (Nintendo does it because they use doubles, not singles, Smogon is for singles) Most people's gripes about Smogon are the discouragement of using their favorites whether it be because they're "nu" (not realizing you can use NU in OU battles) or they're "unfairly banned" (though the only Pokemon that aren't considered uber by Nintendo either are Blaziken and Excadrill.

Their usage data is from their simulators (you...didn't know that?), a fast and quick way to competitive battle, you can get over 40 battles done in 3 hours. It gives people who use it a lot of experience in battling.
The thing about Nintendo's clauses are that they're only for doubles and less people know about it. Do you really think having more than one of the same item is less competitive than sleeping several Pokemon and evasion? Also I dont get that event logic at all. You can hack every Pokemon, not just events. I'm pretty sure events are even harder to hack... unless you mean RNG or something? Nintendo allows RNG. Don't see how events=abusing stat hacking and illegitimacy.

And see, this is why I'm thinking you aren't very experienced in competitive battling. You act as if your anecdote about beating OU Pokemon with NU Pokemon means that NU Pokemon aren't less effective than other Pokemon. I've gotten on the leaderboards with more than one NU in my team and beaten hundreds of OU teams with NU Pokemon. That doesn't mean they're not bad overall. When everyone is skilled players, the ineffectiveness of each Pokemon shows.
#79GiftedACIIIPosted 4/28/2013 7:55:27 PM
keyos27 posted...
but without tiers, they wouldn't be used at all and people will just stop playing competitive altogether whining that it's the same thing over and over again.

Forgot to post another major prejudice, there are bunch of people who play competitively while having less-effective Pokemon in their team without erratic and elongated tiers of Smogon but just with one ban list. People aren't trying hard enough to pull the full potential.

By the way, could you please tell me tomorrow's lottery numbers?


See, I just don't think you understand the metagame. Sure there are some people who'll still use weaker Pokemon but the majority would use the most effective and the metagame will become a lot more stale. You see, that goes against your idea that smogon ruins creativity. People will just use the same OP Pokemon over and over like swift swim kingdra or sand rush excadrill and sure there'll be some deviants but they'll get knocked out over and over again. Your posts only talk about the competitive players who don't play in tournaments or on the ladder.

My reason for hating smogon is that 95% of the time I go to random matchup I see the same damn pokemon with the same damn strategy. Basically It's like I'm battling the same person a 100 times and after a while it gets boring.


It'll basically be this even more except without other tiers to play.

The pokemon metagame is not in a good place. I don't understand smogon's logic. Like other games imbalences should be edited out in patches. Yet smogon seemed to want their game to be a perfect recreation, where as I think pokemon should be buffed and nerfed, so that more pokemon are viable in OU play. Many pokemon with bad flaws could be much better if they got a new move, had a few stats moved around, or a metagame changing move had it's effect changed (stealth rock....)

Is there anyone that thinks the way I do and wants to buff and change things instead of making tiers?


I've never heard of this before,I think that'll make even more people angry.
#80ClassyOldHatPosted 4/28/2013 9:49:47 PM
Ubergeneral3 posted...
The pokemon metagame is not in a good place. I don't understand smogon's logic. Like other games imbalences should be edited out in patches. Yet smogon seemed to want their game to be a perfect recreation, where as I think pokemon should be buffed and nerfed, so that more pokemon are viable in OU play. Many pokemon with bad flaws could be much better if they got a new move, had a few stats moved around, or a metagame changing move had it's effect changed (stealth rock....)

Is there anyone that thinks the way I do and wants to buff and change things instead of making tiers?


I'd love it, personally.

Anyway, why people people hate Smogon:

Hypocrisy, in some cases: banning such and such a move or Pokemon for this reason, but not this or that Pokemon, move or weather for whom the same reason could apply.

Some feel that the game is better with the Luck-based elements, and with so many players following Smogon Rules, they have trouble finding opponents who don't refuse to battle.

Tier lists, which in spite of their good intentions of giving each Pokemon a level playing field, still carry some negative connotations. Yes, we understand that because Butterfree is NU we can use it anywhere we like, but if Butterfree is our favorite, it's still not pleasant to hear "Yeah, your favorite is almost useless unless it's placed with other almost useless pokemon." And as mentioned earlier this runs counter to everything in the series. Yes, we know Gamefreak's mechanics run counter to their own morals. Again, doesn't make it any easier to hear.

Finally, and most simply, many Smogon users, as already mentioned, are very arrogant and elitist, (Which only makes the results of the previous paragraph even harder to hear; if you ask the wrong member how to use Arbok, rather than saying "you'll be best off using it in NU, where it outspeeds x and overpowers y," they say "Well, if someone really dropped you that hard as a baby, you can play with your **** Pokemon in the Junkpile over there.")

Now granted, they have gotten better about this over the years, and their strategy pokedex articles almost never criticize players for wanting to use the Pokemon unless it is clearly a joke like Magikarp and Unown, but you can still see the arrogance and OU bias sneak through in their forums and The Smog articles from time to time.