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So why did people have a problem with Iris being champion?

#111LexifoxPosted 5/8/2013 4:00:51 AM
snuffles504 posted...
Because Gen 5 followed every precedent set by the rest of the main series games.


It follows a good number of them and there's no reason to think that it wouldn't do something similar with Red.

You're also forgetting about Blue. As a rival he owned one of the three starters but used none of them in GSC/HGSS. It would have been pretty easy to take that approach with Hilbert or Hilda.


Blue has Pokemon that he canonically uses, and his team is made up of those Pokemon save for the starter. Hildabert does not have this because you don't have any scripted battles against them.

Bountyan posted...
And I dislike those champions too. Blue, Cynthia, and even Steven managed to have fairly balanced teams with no glaring weaknesses. It doesn't help that Iris' primary type is also repetitive as there as already been a dragon type champion who also used a rock/flying type.


Steven's team was primarily Steel and the others were Rock. Blue's team is kind of undercut by the lack of base stats, but conceded. Cynthia kinda goes without saying that she's an excellent trainer, though. I'm not sure how Iris gets undercut, though. The games have had repetition before, with things like 3/5 of the first gyms using Rock Pokemon. Likewise, while Lance and Iris both use a Rock/Flying, they're both completely different beasts and she doesn't have a good deal of shared typing with him.

Bountyan posted...
No.


In the Kanto games? One Dragon/Flying, two Dragons that become Dragon/Flying, Water/Flying, and Rock/Flying.

In the Johto games? Three Dragon/Flying, one Fire/Flying, one Water/Flying, one Rock/Flying.

FR/LG rematch? Two Dragon/Flying, one Rock/Flying, one Water/Flying, and one Water/Dragon.

HG/SS rematch? One Water/Flying, one Fire/Flying, three Dragon/Flying, and one Dragon/Ground.

For a "Dragon" Champion, he sure has used a lot of Flying types.
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#112ThatPersonGuyPosted 5/8/2013 4:37:26 AM
Calling it now: The majority of Cynthia fans are Lightning fans.

Why is this relevant? Because it's not that "She's hard" or "She appears more" that is why Cynthia has a large fanbase. Heck, I'm not even certain that horny teens is the reason. If Iris had that ONE trait, it wouldn't matter if the last battle was replaced by tea time with Iris.
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#113LandscapeManXPosted 5/8/2013 4:47:27 AM
I'd rather have a badass (at least slightly older) champion than a pretty princess.
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#114SummonearthPosted 5/8/2013 6:17:11 AM(edited)
Personally I find it came out of nowhere. Why can't they just kept the same system like the first Black and White where one version have you battle Drayden and one version where you battle Iris? I think it is a unique gimmick. Also while Adler might not have the most variety of Pokemon on his team, he has more variety than Iris and I would rather battle a Champion that has more variety in his/her team than a type-specialist.
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#115PkmTrainerAbramPosted 5/8/2013 7:03:57 AM
Hey Lexi, getting back to your point.

Then you admit that your complaints are basically illogical bias? I'd imagine the reason for that, incidentally, is that more people watched the show than read the manga. Even then, aren't those people discussing the anime version of Shinji and not the manga incarnation?

I'm not denying this, I stated it outright after all, but the feeling is still there. The games don't give any other impression since IIRC, she isn't struggling to find her way to her status and maturity(?) in both games. I can only assume the anime version of her is how she acted before she actually grew up herself. I expected the anime to have her mature over time, what with the beginning of the saga and then her opening up to Excadrill, but that change never happened. Even in the games, I didn't feel like she was that different from the anime version.

Like I said before, I have no problem with her being the Champion, I just don't like her.
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#116CharizardFirePosted 5/8/2013 7:14:31 AM
From: Ari917 | #107
Still a common weakness between all of his pokemon, for all the crap Wallace, Alder and Iris get you'd think Lance would get some of it. Plus, Gen 4 worsens this with the introduction of Stealth Rock and more Rock-type attacking moves.

Stealth Rock is only available in the postgame in HG/SS.
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#117Ari917Posted 5/8/2013 11:12:01 AM(edited)
CharizardFire posted...
From: Ari917 | #107
Still a common weakness between all of his pokemon, for all the crap Wallace, Alder and Iris get you'd think Lance would get some of it. Plus, Gen 4 worsens this with the introduction of Stealth Rock and more Rock-type attacking moves.

Stealth Rock is only available in the postgame in HG/SS.


Whoops you're right, I thought it was available in Goldenrod. To be fair though, 5/6 members are still vulnerable to it in the rematch so it's not really fixed there either.
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#118snuffles504Posted 5/8/2013 2:00:30 PM
Lexifox posted...
In the Kanto games? One Dragon/Flying, two Dragons that become Dragon/Flying, Water/Flying, and Rock/Flying.

In the Johto games? Three Dragon/Flying, one Fire/Flying, one Water/Flying, one Rock/Flying.

FR/LG rematch? Two Dragon/Flying, one Rock/Flying, one Water/Flying, and one Water/Dragon.

HG/SS rematch? One Water/Flying, one Fire/Flying, three Dragon/Flying, and one Dragon/Ground.

For a "Dragon" Champion, he sure has used a lot of Flying types.

This post can't be serious.

>_>

Let's just take a look at all the fully-evolved Dragons (pre-Gen 5 non-legendary), then:

Dragonite - Dragon/Flying
Kingdra - Water/Dragon
Flygon - Ground/Dragon
Altaria - Dragon/Flying
Salamence - Dragon/Flying
Garchomp - Dragon/Ground

So 50% of fully-evolved Dragons were part Flying-type as well.

Now let's look at Lance's rosters in context. In the original games, there was one line of Dragon Pokemon that ended in Dragon/Flying. So of course any Dragon type in the first gen was going to eventually become part Flying. Two of the three dragonic Pokemon in Gen 1 outside of the actual type are dual-typed as Flying:

Charizard - Fire/Flying
Gyarados - Water/Flying
Seadra - Water

Aerodactyl is the next closest thing being a dinosaur; dinosaurs are often confused with or clumped in with dragons in mythology. In Gen 1, only a few Pokemon had roots with the prehistoric reptiles:

Venusaur - Grass/Poison
Rhydon - Ground/Rock
Lapras - Water/Ice
Aerodactyl - Rock/Flying

Venusaur was a starter, and if Lance wasn't going to get the starter that is actually a dragon, he sure as hell wasn't getting Venusaur. Rhydon and Lapras were signature Pokemon of the eighth Gym Leader and first E4 member, respectively. That leaves Aerodactyl, which happens to be Rock/Flying because it's based on a pterosaur (and possibly a wyvern).

The Gen 2 Pokedex added one Dragon that was given to a Gym Leader as her signature Pokemon. Since Clair is so close to the E4, GameFreak most likely didn't want Lance stealing her thunder. He did, however, gain the only other dragonic Pokemon, Charizard.

Third gen, all the E4 rematches substituted only one Pokemon from their original rosters. What does Lance get? A Water/Dragon type instead of a Dragon/Flying.

In Gen 4, Lance gets three new Pokemon, two Dragon/Flying, one Dragon/Ground. This game once again features Clair, so Kingdra is out. Other than Kindgra, Dragonite is the only fully-evolved Dragon type he owned prior to this, so giving him a team of Dragon-types with no duplicates would be completely re-writing his entire roster. Instead he keeps Gyarados and Charizard, both dragonic Pokemon on his first team. Salamence and Garchomp are shoe-ins, and now the choice is between Flygon, Altaria, or Aerodactyl. Notice how GameFreak didn't go with Aerodactyl, which arguably has the least ties to being a dragon.

Move on to Gen 5, which you conveniently left out. Lance's PWT team has only two Flying types and uses two Dragons that do not fly at all. That alone renders all "Lance is a Flying-type trainer hurr durr" arguments invalid.
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#119LexifoxPosted 5/8/2013 2:02:53 PM
snuffles504 posted...
This post can't be serious.

>_>

Let's just take a look at all the fully-evolved Dragons (pre-Gen 5 non-legendary), then:

Dragonite - Dragon/Flying
Kingdra - Water/Dragon
Flygon - Ground/Dragon
Altaria - Dragon/Flying
Salamence - Dragon/Flying
Garchomp - Dragon/Ground

So 50% of fully-evolved Dragons were part Flying-type as well.

Now let's look at Lance's rosters in context. In the original games, there was one line of Dragon Pokemon that ended in Dragon/Flying. So of course any Dragon type in the first gen was going to eventually become part Flying. Two of the three dragonic Pokemon in Gen 1 outside of the actual type are dual-typed as Flying:

Charizard - Fire/Flying
Gyarados - Water/Flying
Seadra - Water

Aerodactyl is the next closest thing being a dinosaur; dinosaurs are often confused with or clumped in with dragons in mythology. In Gen 1, only a few Pokemon had roots with the prehistoric reptiles:

Venusaur - Grass/Poison
Rhydon - Ground/Rock
Lapras - Water/Ice
Aerodactyl - Rock/Flying

Venusaur was a starter, and if Lance wasn't going to get the starter that is actually a dragon, he sure as hell wasn't getting Venusaur. Rhydon and Lapras were signature Pokemon of the eighth Gym Leader and first E4 member, respectively. That leaves Aerodactyl, which happens to be Rock/Flying because it's based on a pterosaur (and possibly a wyvern).

The Gen 2 Pokedex added one Dragon that was given to a Gym Leader as her signature Pokemon. Since Clair is so close to the E4, GameFreak most likely didn't want Lance stealing her thunder. He did, however, gain the only other dragonic Pokemon, Charizard.

Third gen, all the E4 rematches substituted only one Pokemon from their original rosters. What does Lance get? A Water/Dragon type instead of a Dragon/Flying.

In Gen 4, Lance gets three new Pokemon, two Dragon/Flying, one Dragon/Ground. This game once again features Clair, so Kingdra is out. Other than Kindgra, Dragonite is the only fully-evolved Dragon type he owned prior to this, so giving him a team of Dragon-types with no duplicates would be completely re-writing his entire roster. Instead he keeps Gyarados and Charizard, both dragonic Pokemon on his first team. Salamence and Garchomp are shoe-ins, and now the choice is between Flygon, Altaria, or Aerodactyl. Notice how GameFreak didn't go with Aerodactyl, which arguably has the least ties to being a dragon.

Move on to Gen 5, which you conveniently left out. Lance's PWT team has only two Flying types and uses two Dragons that do not fly at all. That alone renders all "Lance is a Flying-type trainer hurr durr" arguments invalid.


It would seem you missed my tongue. Understandable, as I kept it in my cheek.
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#120BountyanPosted 5/8/2013 2:18:05 PM
Lexifox posted...

Bountyan posted...
No.


In the Kanto games? One Dragon/Flying, two Dragons that become Dragon/Flying, Water/Flying, and Rock/Flying.

In the Johto games? Three Dragon/Flying, one Fire/Flying, one Water/Flying, one Rock/Flying.

FR/LG rematch? Two Dragon/Flying, one Rock/Flying, one Water/Flying, and one Water/Dragon.

HG/SS rematch? One Water/Flying, one Fire/Flying, three Dragon/Flying, and one Dragon/Ground.

For a "Dragon" Champion, he sure has used a lot of Flying types.


But he is still a Dragon champion with a lot of ice weaknesses. No getting around that fact.
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