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What tier would Charizard be w/o Stealth Rock?

#51pokemonfreak97Posted 5/9/2013 9:05:26 AM
Charizard was BL in Gen III. I know--that is not where it would be now. Looking at its base stats, its medium Speed and above-average Sp. A would probably boost it to RU or BL2.
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#52iKhanic(Topic Creator)Posted 5/9/2013 10:22:52 AM
Xavier_On_High posted...
iKhanic posted...
Charizard is the only fire type short of Reshiram or Ho-Oh that can start a sweep from switch in without a choice item.


That's an overly-narrow niche. Any Pokemon can be made to look good when you set up conditions to make it so. "With Sunny Day and Rapid Spin support, Charizard is amazing, as long as it doesn't get hit by a common Rock, Water or Electric move from a faster Pokemon, or from one of the many things that it can't OHKO."


I know it is, but my point is that it's no smaller than Typhlosion's niche. Stab, full health, choice boosted eruption is very nice, but it requires that typhlosion doesn't lose any health, and if it does, it must switch out.

If SR goes away, the niche broadens a bit. Anyway, venusaur's niche is only in the sun as well, and it's one of the most common sun sweepers
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#53GiftedACIIIPosted 5/9/2013 11:33:28 AM
iKhanic posted...
Xavier_On_High posted...
iKhanic posted...
Charizard is the only fire type short of Reshiram or Ho-Oh that can start a sweep from switch in without a choice item.


That's an overly-narrow niche. Any Pokemon can be made to look good when you set up conditions to make it so. "With Sunny Day and Rapid Spin support, Charizard is amazing, as long as it doesn't get hit by a common Rock, Water or Electric move from a faster Pokemon, or from one of the many things that it can't OHKO."


I know it is, but my point is that it's no smaller than Typhlosion's niche. Stab, full health, choice boosted eruption is very nice, but it requires that typhlosion doesn't lose any health, and if it does, it must switch out.

If SR goes away, the niche broadens a bit. Anyway, venusaur's niche is only in the sun as well, and it's one of the most common sun sweepers


Sleep Powder is just that good. Not to mention a X2 boosting move for both offenses. Charizard has no good boosting move. Dragon Dance neither boosts its higher attack stat nor the stat that Solar Power boosts.

STAB, sun-boosted Fire Blast in sunny weather, STAB, 100% accurate Hurricane in rainy weather. Being able to work both in sun and rain is a big upside for Moltres. Additionally, without SR around, it would be a decent Scizor counter.

However, like you, I have my doubts if that would be enough to make it OU... probably not. I think BL, at best

Nah, Chandelure has higher special attack, a better typing, better abilities and only negligent 10 less base speed (90 is very slow for OU) and yet it's still UU.
#54M4nnimalPosted 5/9/2013 11:45:06 AM
Probably RU.
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#55iKhanic(Topic Creator)Posted 5/9/2013 11:56:14 AM
GiftedACIII posted...

STAB, sun-boosted Fire Blast in sunny weather, STAB, 100% accurate Hurricane in rainy weather. Being able to work both in sun and rain is a big upside for Moltres. Additionally, without SR around, it would be a decent Scizor counter.

However, like you, I have my doubts if that would be enough to make it OU... probably not. I think BL, at best

Nah, Chandelure has a better typing, better abilities and only negligent 10 less base speed (90 is very slow for OU) and yet it's still UU.


With SR out of the picture, that's either arguable or wrong. Fire/flying gets a bad rap because of SR, but it's a pretty middle of the road type. It has two very nice 4x resistances to bug and grass and 2x resistances to fire, steel, and fighting. It also has that ground immunity. Chandelure also has some good resistances but it also has 5 weaknesses to fire/flying's 3.

Also, I'd say speed is the only stat that's never negligible, since its either you move 1st or not. There is no middle ground, so 101 is actually a lot better than 100
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#56GiftedACIIIPosted 5/9/2013 1:00:47 PM
iKhanic posted...
GiftedACIII posted...

STAB, sun-boosted Fire Blast in sunny weather, STAB, 100% accurate Hurricane in rainy weather. Being able to work both in sun and rain is a big upside for Moltres. Additionally, without SR around, it would be a decent Scizor counter.

However, like you, I have my doubts if that would be enough to make it OU... probably not. I think BL, at best

Nah, Chandelure has a better typing, better abilities and only negligent 10 less base speed (90 is very slow for OU) and yet it's still UU.


With SR out of the picture, that's either arguable or wrong. Fire/flying gets a bad rap because of SR, but it's a pretty middle of the road type. It has two very nice 4x resistances to bug and grass and 2x resistances to fire, steel, and fighting. It also has that ground immunity. Chandelure also has some good resistances but it also has 5 weaknesses to fire/flying's 3.

Also, I'd say speed is the only stat that's never negligible, since its either you move 1st or not. There is no middle ground, so 101 is actually a lot better than 100


Offensive wise I mean.Fire/Flying is a very redundant typing. And not vs each other, but against the OU/UU climate. 80 and 90 is practically the same thing as most offensive Pokemon are zooming past 90 anyways even in UU.
#57Genericgamer667Posted 5/9/2013 1:29:43 PM
iKhanic posted...
GiftedACIII posted...

STAB, sun-boosted Fire Blast in sunny weather, STAB, 100% accurate Hurricane in rainy weather. Being able to work both in sun and rain is a big upside for Moltres. Additionally, without SR around, it would be a decent Scizor counter.

However, like you, I have my doubts if that would be enough to make it OU... probably not. I think BL, at best

Nah, Chandelure has a better typing, better abilities and only negligent 10 less base speed (90 is very slow for OU) and yet it's still UU.


With SR out of the picture, that's either arguable or wrong. Fire/flying gets a bad rap because of SR, but it's a pretty middle of the road type. It has two very nice 4x resistances to bug and grass and 2x resistances to fire, steel, and fighting. It also has that ground immunity. Chandelure also has some good resistances but it also has 5 weaknesses to fire/flying's 3.

Also, I'd say speed is the only stat that's never negligible, since its either you move 1st or not. There is no middle ground, so 101 is actually a lot better than 100


resistance to steel moves? yeah that so useful
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#58iKhanic(Topic Creator)Posted 5/9/2013 2:28:33 PM
GiftedACIII posted...
iKhanic posted...
GiftedACIII posted...

STAB, sun-boosted Fire Blast in sunny weather, STAB, 100% accurate Hurricane in rainy weather. Being able to work both in sun and rain is a big upside for Moltres. Additionally, without SR around, it would be a decent Scizor counter.

However, like you, I have my doubts if that would be enough to make it OU... probably not. I think BL, at best

Nah, Chandelure has a better typing, better abilities and only negligent 10 less base speed (90 is very slow for OU) and yet it's still UU.


With SR out of the picture, that's either arguable or wrong. Fire/flying gets a bad rap because of SR, but it's a pretty middle of the road type. It has two very nice 4x resistances to bug and grass and 2x resistances to fire, steel, and fighting. It also has that ground immunity. Chandelure also has some good resistances but it also has 5 weaknesses to fire/flying's 3.

Also, I'd say speed is the only stat that's never negligible, since its either you move 1st or not. There is no middle ground, so 101 is actually a lot better than 100


Offensive wise I mean.Fire/Flying is a very redundant typing. And not vs each other, but against the OU/UU climate. 80 and 90 is practically the same thing as most offensive Pokemon are zooming past 90 anyways even in UU.


True, it only adds one additional STAB strength; however, Ghost only adds two, so it's not that much better.
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#59GalladetheGreatPosted 5/9/2013 2:29:42 PM
Rad_Dudesman posted...
RU at best.

Rocks aren't his only problem.

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#60ThatKippPosted 5/9/2013 8:12:23 PM
From: GalladetheGreat | #059
Rad_Dudesman posted...
RU at best.

Rocks aren't his only problem.

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