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Would people like any of the following?

#31BountyanPosted 7/1/2013 2:14:35 AM(edited)
bd43
It's not really hidden. Two friends with the same pokemon at roughly the same level look at the stats. Discover they are different. Minor fascination. It's an original concept from the original games and is both realistic and dynamic. Taking it away does nothing good.


When there are different levels, different natures, and different EVs as soon as you start training them, yes they're going to be hidden. The chances of finding two Pokemon with the exact same level and nature just to compare them is unlikely and barely adds any gameplay value. Minor fascination isn't worth the huge hassle it is just to catch up to lucky players or hackers online. A minor difference in IVs can cost a game and it gives hackers a huge advantage over legitimate players while EVs and natures don't. It being an original concept means nothing. Physical and special types were also an original concept but they were awful and Gamefreak took them out. Realism isn't worth anything either. If they want realism they may as well also put in a mechanic that has Pokemon die after a certain number of steps or if it faints too much. And yes it would do something good; it means that my Pokemon aren't worse than some other guy's for no freaking reason, adds less tedium to team building, and it has the potential to make hidden power more intuitive.
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3DS FC: -
White 2 FC: 1765 0547 5604, Name: Kojo
#32FuneralCakePosted 7/1/2013 2:12:46 AM
bd43 posted...
Your argument is based on one big flaw, though - That the games should remotely revolve around competition. You're suggesting that Pokemon being unique, even if only vaguely, doesn't have any sort of pull anywhere. Just because you're not playing competitively doesn't mean you're completely disinterested and only put in 20 hours trying to beat the game. You also don't have every competitive player putting in dozens of hours to perfect each build.


No, that is not the case at all. My argument is saying that those who are interested in competitive are hurt by IVs, and keeping them in only hurts those players, while the players who don't care will likely never even notice the intricacies behind the IV system. Taking away IVs, however, doesn't really hurt anyone. It doesn't take away any important time spent playing the game, but instead only adds unnecessary padding. You can still breed for your favorite Pokemon, you can still spend hours training them, etc. and most importantly, you can still have fun with the game if IVs are gone. Everyone can have fun with the game.

And taking away IVs actually does completely change the metagame. It changes all the numbers and max numbers. Formulas and builds ripped to pieces. Unless you're suggesting the even more stupid idea of leaving a 30 point buff in there for nothing.


I'm not sure if you realize this, but the builds essentially always assume that Pokemon are optimal. The builds assume that the Pokemon either have the highest IVs possible or the lowest (for speed, certain HP numbers, etc.). By removing the IVs, nothing really changes, since instead of assuming that the Pokemon are optimal, we know they are. Sure, maybe "optimal" isn't exactly the best word to use here, since you'd get a few examples where a Pokemon may lose out on being a bit faster with Trick Room, or gets optimal HP recovery from Leftovers, but like I said in a post above, the pros far outweigh the cons.

Further, if you increase them, you have more options in doing things with them. You don't need every stat to go from 0 to the highest value. You can add a cap for all 6 stats like EVs. And you can add easier options to increase bad values in the game.


All this does is add more unnecessary grinding and padding to an already tedious and lengthy process. It doesn't add anything good at all.

At the very, very, very least, IVs should be reduced in range, not increased. Gen 3 doubling the range from gens 1 and 2 was a bad idea. If we have a range of 0-7 instead of 0-31 or - Arceus f***ing forbid - 0-63 or even 0-127, then people who enjoy breeding are still able to breed for their good Pokemon, but it takes less time to get what you want. Legendaries are now more likely to be viable. Et cetera.
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THAT'S MISS FUNERAL CAKE TO YOU
i don't want to do things. i want to not do things.
#33bd43Posted 7/1/2013 2:32:27 AM
Bountyan posted...
bd43
It's not really hidden. Two friends with the same pokemon at roughly the same level look at the stats. Discover they are different. Minor fascination. It's an original concept from the original games and is both realistic and dynamic. Taking it away does nothing good.


When there are different levels, different natures, and different EVs as soon as you start training them, yes they're going to be hidden. The chances of finding two Pokemon with the exact same level and nature just to compare them is unlikely and barely adds any gameplay value. Minor fascination isn't worth the huge hassle it is just to catch up to lucky players or hackers online. A minor difference in IVs can cost a game and it gives hackers a huge advantage over legitimate players while EVs and natures don't. It being an original concept means nothing. Physical and special types were also an original concept but they were awful and Gamefreak took them out. Realism isn't worth anything either. If they want realism they may as well also put in a mechanic that has Pokemon die after a certain number of steps or if it faints too much. And yes it would do something good; it means that my Pokemon aren't worse than some other guy's for no freaking reason, adds less tedium to team building, and it has the potential to make hidden power more intuitive.


The number is hidden. The difference is not.

6 hidden numbers is hardly an argument for ditching a system. You can also show them at no cost and increase the methods to manipulate and improve them.

The game isn't designed to cater to competitive battlers and was, in fact, designed with logic and reason in mind for people to get together, compare, and buddy buddy with. A random number can do that - hidden or not, effected or not. A larger random number can do that better.
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Thinking is overrated. Like Pants.
#34bd43Posted 7/1/2013 3:22:13 AM
FuneralCake posted...
My argument is saying that those who are interested in competitive are hurt by IVs, and keeping them in only hurts those players, while the players who don't care will likely never even notice the intricacies behind the IV system.


So basically, you're lying. Never is a falsehood that's actually restricted by the short range of the stats.

And those who play competitive should have to earn it. It's not like people who play fighting games never practice to be competitive there.

It doesn't take away any important time spent playing the game, but instead only adds unnecessary padding. You can still breed for your favorite Pokemon, you can still spend hours training them, etc. and most importantly, you can still have fun with the game if IVs are gone. Everyone can have fun with the game.


It takes away character and actually limits how many pokemon can be effective, particularly if you take them away completely. Most of the reason to breed is gone, and each pokemon is the same, more so than before. Any chance that a kid or uninformed player had of noticing the change is reduced. While increasing IVs and increasing/changing EVs would increase the visibility and allow people who care less to still notice eventually, nullifying the argument.

The games were based on bug catching. If two kids found a butterfly each and compared the two, would they not be at least slightly enthralled by any differences?

By removing the IVs, nothing really changes. . .pros far outweigh the cons.


It's a lesson in math. The stats aren't added or subtracted. They're multiplied and divided. Taking 31 points(1/10 to 1/12 of some of the best stats in the game, mind you) of a stat for nothing will give the metagame a wild offensive swing. Implementing the 31 points to maintain status quo while ditching an original and realistic feature of play is silly.

You've also listed few pros aside from it being 'easier' for a sect of gamers who, reality is, should be forced to earn what they want.

All this does is add more unnecessary grinding and padding to an already tedious and lengthy process. It doesn't add anything good at all.


Hey look, an empty assumption from an uncreative mind. There are already ways to reduce the issues with IVs significantly. Your issue is an assumption that any change to the system would play out exactly the same when a change to the system allows you to try and apply new things.

So you can potentially make breeding easier - Or at least more realistic per stat, certainly not nearly as masochistic as you envision - and still useful while making a larger group of pokemon viable. But sure, lets assume that increasing the IV span instantly means doubling the pool for pokemon generated. Brilliant.

Double the range. Create a ceiling between the 6 stats. Create a floor. Make breeding revolve around the 6 stats of both parents. Implement items to increase certain IVs before and after breeding. That alone could reduce the amount of bred pokemon by a massive amount.
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Thinking is overrated. Like Pants.
#35VIIVincentPosted 7/1/2013 3:25:09 AM
changing Pokeballs not limited to only newly bred Pokemon. you can change the ball at any time how many times you want for any Pokemon BUT it wastes the ball.
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The end is nigh! *continues playing game*
#36deadpool848Posted 7/1/2013 5:42:28 AM
How about everytime you breed, the overall IVs get better untill you receave a perfect IV poke? Would still take time but at elast you will know your making progress towards a good IV pokemon as your breeding.
Process would work something like this:
> Breed Pokemon X with Ditto
> Hatch egg into Pokemon Y (Pokemon Y now has better IV stats than pokemon X)
> Breed Pokemon Y with Ditto
> Hatch egg into pokemon Z (Pokemon Z now has better IV stats than pokemon Y)
maybe make it so it takes four generations to get an all 31 IV pokemon? Still time consuming and wont stop the hackers, but gives us something to use in-game that we still need to work for.
#37BountyanPosted 7/1/2013 1:48:26 PM(edited)
bd43 posted...
The number is hidden. The difference is not.

6 hidden numbers is hardly an argument for ditching a system. You can also show them at no cost and increase the methods to manipulate and improve them.

The game isn't designed to cater to competitive battlers and was, in fact, designed with logic and reason in mind for people to get together, compare, and buddy buddy with. A random number can do that - hidden or not, effected or not. A larger random number can do that better.


Yes the difference is hidden. Again, with random EVs, levels, and natures, differences specifically from IVs aren't going to be noticeable.

When catering to competitive players doesn't affect casual players, then it's catering that should be done. It just makes team building and breeding more intuitive than creating a bunch of baby Pokemon just to release them until you find the best one. Casual players will barely notice a difference. There's already more than enough room for comparison and diversity with EVs, moves, natures, abilities, hidden power type, and all the different kinds of Pokemon. And it's hard to compare IVs because you can't even see them. If they only kept the personality blurb it would be fine, but IVs having a role in stats calculation isn't necessary and it just make the game worse.
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3DS FC: -
White 2 FC: 1765 0547 5604, Name: Kojo
#38bd43Posted 7/1/2013 7:35:49 PM
Bountyan posted...
bd43 posted...
The number is hidden. The difference is not.

6 hidden numbers is hardly an argument for ditching a system. You can also show them at no cost and increase the methods to manipulate and improve them.

The game isn't designed to cater to competitive battlers and was, in fact, designed with logic and reason in mind for people to get together, compare, and buddy buddy with. A random number can do that - hidden or not, effected or not. A larger random number can do that better.


Yes the difference is hidden. Again, with random EVs, levels, and natures, differences specifically from IVs aren't going to be noticeable.

When catering to competitive players doesn't affect casual players, then it's catering that should be done. It just makes team building and breeding more intuitive than creating a bunch of baby Pokemon just to release them until you find the best one. Casual players will barely notice a difference. There's already more than enough room for comparison and diversity with EVs, moves, natures, abilities, hidden power type, and all the different kinds of Pokemon. And it's hard to compare IVs because you can't even see them. If they only kept the personality blurb it would be fine, but IVs having a role in stats calculation isn't necessary and it just make the game worse.


Not really hidden. I like how you suggest that casual players will notice and understand EVs and natures

And when your game features a system intended to enhance the competitive experience to begin with, you don't need to cut it simply because a few kids can't make the greatest mon. Greater control over breeding IVs or even in general is respectable. Dumping it to cater to a crowd that doesn't need it is stupid.
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Thinking is overrated. Like Pants.
#39BountyanPosted 7/2/2013 12:27:22 AM(edited)
bd43 posted...
Not really hidden. I like how you suggest that casual players will notice and understand EVs and natures

And when your game features a system intended to enhance the competitive experience to begin with, you don't need to cut it simply because a few kids can't make the greatest mon. Greater control over breeding IVs or even in general is respectable. Dumping it to cater to a crowd that doesn't need it is stupid.


I like how you suggest that casual players will notice and understand IVs. They WILL be hidden because as soon as you start training the Pokemon their stats will be changed from the EVs and the IV differences will be masked. Ever notice how IV calculators don't work if you don't know the Pokemon's EV's? And yeah, natures ARE a lot more understandable, because for one, you can actually see what each of them are (which makes it easier to compare Pokemon of the same species for this "minor fascination" you were describing), and two, the stats that they increase and decrease are highlighted. Much better than hidden values that casual players won't even know about until they read on the internet.

How exactly do IVs enhance the competitive experience again? By encouraging hacks and playing on simulators while if you want to play legitimately you need to essentially roll dice for hours? That does nothing to enhance competitive play; all it does is make it more tedious.
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3DS FC: -
White 2 FC: 1765 0547 5604, Name: Kojo