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Why does nobody care about the grid movement?

#141ClassyOldHatPosted 7/4/2013 4:24:39 PM
Twinmold posted...
You can like a games series while still admitting its, in this case, numerous problems.


That's true. I'll admit the problems in a lot of games I like. I'll also be indifferent to insignificant matters in a lot of games I like. I still feel this falls into the second category; i.e. if you had to choose between balancing the type chart/making all pokemon have a more even standing/Improving story and dialouge and being able to move in the overworld at 26 degree angles, I think we would know what would make the more memorable difference.

Instead of being all hyper defensive of Game Freak, why not list some reasons why grid based movement is better than 3D for Pokemon?


I'll let those who sincerely believe grid movement is better argue that. But since this topic was started with the notion that free movement would drastically improve the series, I'd say the burden of proof is on your side. The only arguments I've heard for how free movement would it be "fresh" and it would "allow for more complex level design."

The "Fresh" argument sounds dubious, as if you don't like the overworlds now, I doubt free roaming alone would change that. It would take better map design from GameFreak, and simply adding adding free roaming wouldn't magically make GameFreak design better maps.

Which leads to "allowing for more complex level design." while I have finally had someone cite some specific games as examples of gridless movement allowing for more complex levels, I haven't heard them list any puzzle/level design element that can be done in a gridless RPG that can't in a grid.

I've been racking my brain for gridless top-down 2D games that parallel Pokemon, but have a puzzle or level gimmick that is not possible in a grid. But from Chrono Trigger, Mario And Luigi, Megaman Starforce, Bastion* or any of the 2D Zeldas,* I can only recall one puzzle that would be impossible in a grid based game: a puzzle based around making a series of mid-jump u-turns in a secret dungeon in a linked game of Oracle of Age.

Otherwise, I've thought of puzzles based on hitting certain switches in certain orders, opening and closing doors in a maze, timing movement through a conveyer belt, falling through holes on one level of a dungeon to reach inaccessible areas on a lower level of the dungeon, hitting some switches while avoiding others, dealing with frictionless ice, floors that crumble if stood on for too long, chase sections, and stealth sections, and none of them have any elements that would exclude them from appearing in a grid based game.

Again, my position is it makes no difference. If free roaming was confirmed tomorrow, and someone made a topic complaining about that, I'd post basically the same argument: that this isn't the deal breaker you are making it out to be.


*Now, the combat in these games is impossible in grid based games, but since we are not altering Pokemon's combat, I am focusing only on the puzzles and level design when citing them as examples of things that can be done with or without grids.
#142TaticalWarriorPosted 7/4/2013 4:49:24 PM
ClassyOldHat posted...
Twinmold posted...
That's true. I'll admit the problems in a lot of games I like. I'll also be indifferent to insignificant matters in a lot of games I like. I still feel this falls into the second category; i.e. if you had to choose between balancing the type chart/making all pokemon have a more even standing/Improving story and dialouge and being able to move in the overworld at 26 degree angles, I think we would know what would make the more memorable difference.


This is just terrible analogy. The team responsible for doing script and story aren't the one balancing the type chart. It i not like they have only one peron to do the entire game to begin with. Besides, I NEVER, EVER saw a game with lacking features or quality because they used 3D movement. You can't just be serious.



I'll let those who sincerely believe grid movement is better argue that. But since this topic was started with the notion that free movement would drastically improve the series, I'd say the burden of proof is on your side. The only arguments I've heard for how free movement would it be "fresh" and it would "allow for more complex level design."

The "Fresh" argument sounds dubious, as if you don't like the overworlds now, I doubt free roaming alone would change that. It would take better map design from GameFreak, and simply adding adding free roaming wouldn't magically make GameFreak design better maps.

Which leads to "allowing for more complex level design." while I have finally had someone cite some specific games as examples of gridless movement allowing for more complex levels, I haven't heard them list any puzzle/level design element that can be done in a gridless RPG that can't in a grid.

I've been racking my brain for gridless top-down 2D games that parallel Pokemon, but have a puzzle or level gimmick that is not possible in a grid. But from Chrono Trigger, Mario And Luigi, Megaman Starforce, Bastion* or any of the 2D Zeldas,* I can only recall one puzzle that would be impossible in a grid based game: a puzzle based around making a series of mid-jump u-turns in a secret dungeon in a linked game of Oracle of Age.

Otherwise, I've thought of puzzles based on hitting certain switches in certain orders, opening and closing doors in a maze, timing movement through a conveyer belt, falling through holes on one level of a dungeon to reach inaccessible areas on a lower level of the dungeon, hitting some switches while avoiding others, dealing with frictionless ice, floors that crumble if stood on for too long, chase sections, and stealth sections, and none of them have any elements that would exclude them from appearing in a grid based game.

Again, my position is it makes no difference. If free roaming was confirmed tomorrow, and someone made a topic complaining about that, I'd post basically the same argument: that this isn't the deal breaker you are making it out to be.

Now, the combat in these games is impossible in grid based games, but since we are not altering Pokemon's combat, I am focusing only on the puzzles and level design when citing them as examples of things that can be done with or without grids.


In other words, you have limited creativity and thus you can't understand how a little concept could change things in considerable ways. Close minded.
---
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http://tinyurl.com/3r6wb4u
#143SuperRup91Posted 7/4/2013 4:55:49 PM
Eltain posted...
Am I the only one that is considering passing on this generation entirely simply because of the grid based movement?


Yes. Yes you are. If you honestly think your stupid, trivial and arbitrary reason for not playing a game is felt by anyone else, you are deluded.
#144ClassyOldHatPosted 7/4/2013 5:50:01 PM
TaticalWarrior posted...
This is just terrible analogy. The team responsible for doing script and story aren't the one balancing the type chart. It i not like they have only one peron to do the entire game to begin with. Besides, I NEVER, EVER saw a game with lacking features or quality because they used 3D movement. You can't just be serious.


I am serious, but I'm serious about what I said, not what you read into it. I did not imply that one can ONLY have a balanced game/Good Story OR free movement, YOU read that into my post by taking a hypothetical to be literal.

I am well aware that these things are not mutually exclusive. I was making a hypothetical example to put perspective on how meaningless free movement would be in this game compared to a balanced battle system or excellent story. How about a hypothetical situation that is less easy to misconstrue: If all three things were to be introduced in this generation, which element do you think would be the most fondly remembered by the player base, as a whole?

In other words, you have limited creativity and thus you can't understand how a little concept could change things in considerable ways. Close minded.


Name calling and insults? Interesting debate strategy.

Now, I would think I'm actually fairly creative for imagining ways to implement puzzles that have, until now, only appeared in gridless games, into grid-based games. But then again, any given individual is the worst person to ask about said indiviual's strengths. So I will accept your assessment that I am close minded, without any argument, or looking for proof to the contrary.

But again, I must point to the fact that, as the ones who started the topic by suggesting that abandoning the grid would drastically change the game, the burden of proof lies with you.

But really, providing an example of a noticeable gameplay change or puzzle that is only possible with grid based movement would be an insignificant task for such a clearly creative and open-minded individual. So go ahead.



@Twinmold and others arguing for gridless movement. Please don't think I mean to insult you with this post's sarcasm and frustration. It is being directed solely at the one I am quoting. The rest of you strike me as reasonable people whom I simply happen to disagree with.
#145TaticalWarriorPosted 7/4/2013 7:04:55 PM
ClassyOldHat posted...
TaticalWarrior posted...
This is just terrible analogy. The team responsible for doing script and story aren't the one balancing the type chart. It i not like they have only one peron to do the entire game to begin with. Besides, I NEVER, EVER saw a game with lacking features or quality because they used 3D movement. You can't just be serious.


I am serious, but I'm serious about what I said, not what you read into it. I did not imply that one can ONLY have a balanced game/Good Story OR free movement, YOU read that into my post by taking a hypothetical to be literal.

I am well aware that these things are not mutually exclusive. I was making a hypothetical example to put perspective on how meaningless free movement would be in this game compared to a balanced battle system or excellent story. How about a hypothetical situation that is less easy to misconstrue: If all three things were to be introduced in this generation, which element do you think would be the most fondly remembered by the player base, as a whole?


I am just talking how absurd the whole thing is: you blow a basic mechanic as walking out of proportion, comparing with a full element. And this happens because if walking was obvious in taking away resources, you wouldn't have trouble giving a decent example. In other words: a very, very basic mechanic, as in, a very simple and barebone one, shouldn't be defended to death from change simply because the change wouldn't never be something that would require anything more than simple good-will.
---
Proud designer of Chip, the Runner Up Megaman Legends 3's Mascot Contest!
http://tinyurl.com/3r6wb4u
#146ClassyOldHatPosted 7/4/2013 7:44:53 PM
TaticalWarrior posted...
I am just talking how absurd the whole thing is: you blow a basic mechanic as walking out of proportion, comparing with a full element. And this happens because if walking was obvious in taking away resources, you wouldn't have trouble giving a decent example. In other words: a very, very basic mechanic, as in, a very simple and barebone one, shouldn't be defended to death from change simply because the change wouldn't never be something that would require anything more than simple good-will.


Forgive me, but is English your first language? I'm not trying to be sarcastic anymore, because I cannot see otherwise how you've managed to misunderstand me so fundamentally otherwise.

You're still focusing on the purposely absurd hypothetical situation, and basically ignoring everything else I posted, including my saying that I don't actually object to free movement.

I know this is not taking away resources. I know it would not take much work. I am saying that the change would do so little to change that I do not care if Game Freak changes it or not, and making a fuss about it (like you are doing) is a waste of time and energy.

Also, you still don't give any specifics as to how free movement would change this game for the better.
#147TaticalWarriorPosted 7/4/2013 7:48:27 PM
ClassyOldHat posted...
TaticalWarrior posted...
I am just talking how absurd the whole thing is: you blow a basic mechanic as walking out of proportion, comparing with a full element. And this happens because if walking was obvious in taking away resources, you wouldn't have trouble giving a decent example. In other words: a very, very basic mechanic, as in, a very simple and barebone one, shouldn't be defended to death from change simply because the change wouldn't never be something that would require anything more than simple good-will.


Forgive me, but is English your first language? I'm not trying to be sarcastic anymore, because I cannot see otherwise how you've managed to misunderstand me so fundamentally otherwise.

You're still focusing on the purposely absurd hypothetical situation, and basically ignoring everything else I posted, including my saying that I don't actually object to free movement.

I know this is not taking away resources. I know it would not take much work. I am saying that the change would do so little to change that I do not care if Game Freak changes it or not, and making a fuss about it (like you are doing) is a waste of time and energy.

Also, you still don't give any specifics as to how free movement would change this game for the better.


So, you are saying that I am not understanding you, but you are still asking me how it would change anything, even after I mentioned many times how it affects level design, and examples like the difference between dungeon design from FFIV-VI and VII-IX?

WOW. Way to go. Now seriously, don't bring down this argument to "you don't know englishz, lol", when you clearly are the one who aren't grasping the line of logic here.
---
Proud designer of Chip, the Runner Up Megaman Legends 3's Mascot Contest!
http://tinyurl.com/3r6wb4u
#148Eltain(Topic Creator)Posted 7/4/2013 9:26:15 PM
Lone_Hunter posted...
In no way is this a game breaker. The reason I think it is not in there is sue to trainer battles. If you can move diagonally you could avoid majority of the battles. Where is the fun in that?

Mario 64 compared to Pokemon, have you played either before? If so you know they are 2 very different games. Pokemon game play does not rely on over world game play (though they do add attractions to make it more immersive[sp?]) rather it concentrates on fixed battle areas. Where Mario 64 is all about the over worlds and how you interact with them.

So again I say, No I do not care that there is no "free movement" because that is not what the Pokemon games are about.


Pokemon XD and Collosseum had absolutely _no_ problem making trainer battles function in 3D rendered environments. Game Freak are complaining so much about "script based events" as their big excuse. The Pokemon Company took Pokemon into their hands for those two games on the Gamecube and in every single area, guess what?
You walk in front of a trainer, he has a set algorithm to check if you are within a certain range, and if you are... you'll never believe this.. the battle starts! OMG!
It's ironic that they are calling these games "X and Y" after the X, Y and Z axis of modelling and game creation when they can't even put in the core principles of 3D movement. We have been seeing this since the Super Nintendo, and I cannot bear to see these idiots waste another game on this deal breaker.

It's bad enough that they haven't opened up the worlds at all, or elaborated more on the battle strategies, throwing at us the same dull storyline each time. I am more than happy to eat it up, but when all directional movement is finally due - I expect it to be delivered.

I just hope the gaming community gets really upset about this and forces Game Freak to add in this feature by giving terrible feedback. Now I have to skip an entire Pokemon generation over Game Freak leaving out what could be fixed in one line of code.
Yes, this is my problem. I just cannot believe nobody cares as much as I do.

Wouldn't Donphan work better for this?
No. An elephant or Donphan would be too small to describe the scale of disappointment I am feeling right now.
#149TaticalWarriorPosted 7/4/2013 10:22:43 PM(edited)
The thing is: XY HAS 3D movement. Full 3D movement. Everywhere. But what is JARRING, is how they make ONE CITY to feature it. AND THAT IS F***** ALL.
The rest of the game is designed in squares. As if they decided to throw in 3D movement in the last moment that they decided to create the "pokemon capital", aka the Castelia city of XY.

The people of this topic are arguing so much that GF shouldnn't waste their time making something as mind-blowingly simple as free movement, when IN FACT, they MADE it, and are UNDERUSING this **** in a single area of the game. ALL THE TIME SPENT ON CREATING A FEATURE, FOR UNDERUSAGE.

I love GF, but making trailers and propaganda with 3D scenarios, like how they did with BW and BW2, showing things that are superficial and minority in the real game as if it represents the game is just SHAMEFUL.
They are even repeating the absurd of creating a feature (RIDE YOUR POKEMON! :D with ****** 3D movement) just for A COUPLE OF AREAS. You get hype watching them, and when you get the game, the said one is exactly 90% equal to the last ones, and you are faced with the same designs and wonder when the cool things in the trailer will kick in. Then they happen for 5 minutes, and you are back in the same stuff that you are already bored to see since Gen I.

It is just sad to see people defending GF as in "they are still testing it, they can't make it, they don't know even how to turn on a pc, who can say program a game", when they actually ARE doing those things, but are being LAZY, as in, not doing a full thing, because they just don't want.

OPEN YOUR EYES. THE GAMES ARE NOT BAD. But when you defend things as blindly as this, you are lowering your dignity and the dignity of the fanbase and gamers by being such close minded people who don't want to think outside the box.
---
Proud designer of Chip, the Runner Up Megaman Legends 3's Mascot Contest!
http://tinyurl.com/3r6wb4u
#150ClassyOldHatPosted 7/5/2013 6:38:52 AM
TaticalWarrior posted...
So, you are saying that I am not understanding you, but you are still asking me how it would change anything, even after I mentioned many times how it affects level design, and examples like the difference between dungeon design from FFIV-VI and VII-IX?

WOW. Way to go. Now seriously, don't bring down this argument to "you don't know englishz, lol", when you clearly are the one who aren't grasping the line of logic here.


I asked HOW it would change level design. You respond saying it would change level design. You can see how I don't feel this is an adequate answer.

I cited specific examples of types of puzzles and pieces of level design that would work equally well with or without a grid, in such a way that even those who hadn't played the games I had cited could understand what I was talking about.

You namedrop a few games from a single series. I'm sorry, but without having played the games, your examples mean nothing to me. When I say "Example" I don't just want a namedrop of a game. I want to see HOW a map or puzzle from final fantasy VII and up cannot be done on a grid. Look up and link to a map or youtube video of the area or puzzle in question, if you find it to hard to describe with text alone.

Tell me HOW free movement would change level design. Tell me what new puzzles or maps would be possible. Give me examples of level design or puzzles in the past that were only possible without a grid; don't just namedrop a game, point to specific levels/puzzles IN that game.

All the people arguing that this is a game killer have thus far only given fuzzy arguements about making things "fresh" or allowing "new level design." I have not seen a specific level design element cited.

(Not to mention, with GameFreak being lazy, there would be nothing stopping them from implementing free movement... and then producing maps built for a grid anyway.)