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I don't understand the hate smogon gets

#31All-icePosted 8/28/2013 10:54:36 AM
Smogon is my GOD :3
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#32PK_GamingPosted 8/28/2013 11:36:33 AM
zinformant posted...

And that's a delusion that the standard is always better than others that, then, 'suck'. There are 'sucky' Pokemon out there, but anyone playing seriously likely won't be generating one.

Nonsense. Smogon players place arbitrary rules in an attempt to level the battlefield including ones rather anti-RPG. Many of their rules attempt to remove luck from the equation. Luck is a part of this genre. Why do they do it? They believe luck allows the worse player to win. They believe they're the better player. I cannot advocate that kind of arrogance. Additionally, the community stifles creativity because there are 'right' ways to use Pokemon and 'right' Pokemon to use in certain tiers.
Truly, the hate comes from Smogon players when they find Pokemon used unconventionally that kill their act of prediction.


You seem to be associating players "who have no idea how the game works, so I am going to spout elitist bs" with smogon as a whole, which is pretty disheartening. I'm just going to say it straight up; there is nobody, NOBODY who plays this game on a competitive level that doesn't consider every single option when teambuilding. Your post actually comes across as ironic because it's the best of players who come with the unconventional sets, and actually win with them. It's the lower level players that are stuck with the mentality that standard = best thing imaginable.

Let me drop some anecdotal evidence on you: The guy that ended up clinching the world cup tournament? He used Tailwind Suicune. The guy who dominated the smogon premier league? Ran Feraligatr in OU, despite the prevailing notion that it's completely outclassed by Gyarados.

You think that smogon actively tries to stifle creativity? The same site that gives analyses to pretty much every Pokemon? Really dude? We have players who are constantly trying to buck the trend, because even the slightest edge can win you the game.

I'm honestly really disappointed right now, because I do not want smogon to misrepresented as what you have made it out to be (from someone I respect, no less).
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#33zinformantPosted 8/28/2013 12:36:59 PM
That's an interesting way to put it considering it does not align with my experiences, and this community's reputation hasn't changed since I heard of it in, maybe, '06. That said, I have only, admittedly, set foot on the Web site to read the articles regarding RNG manipulation.
PK_Gaming posted...
You seem to be associating players "who have no idea how the game works, so I am going to spout elitist bs" with smogon as a whole, which is pretty disheartening. I'm just going to say it straight up; there is nobody, NOBODY who plays this game on a competitive level that doesn't consider every single option when teambuilding.

This may be correct; perhaps I've rarely actually spoken with, let alone battled, a player from the latter group. I can tell you now there seem to be few, if any, such individuals on this Web site (posting actively, anyway). I have been unable to have an intelligent discussion on this matter outside of the RPG board, where folks are general genre players, not dedicated Pokemon fans (which this board, I would argue, seems to be primarily inhabited by). And if my understanding of Smogon (in-depth analyses of each Pokemon leading to two or three ways to play each one leading to a predictable game) is flawed, then I apologize for the generalization and amend my previous statements to apply to the first group of players, who there seem to be no dearth of.

Two folks earlier in this topic equated unconventional (using Feraligatr in lieu of Gyarados or the speedy (?) Suicune set) with 'bad'. One user, rather insultingly, wrote up the following:
TheMasterTurtle posted...
No sucky is wrong. If I give my Hitmonchan Close Combat, Hi Jump Kick, Mach Punch and Comet Punch then that is a bad moveset. Unconventional yes but also terrible.

Is this (set that anyone not new to the series could note is poorly written) the only alternative to the 'right' way(s) to play Hitmonchan? I cannot say for certain because I don't know how much utility Hitmonchan has offhand without looking it up, but I'd like to believe I could design a Hitmonchan 'my' way without external influence, go on a simulator, and surprise a few individuals. The element of surprise wouldn't be there if folks did not expect specific sets from Hitmonchan, right? For quick anecdotal evidence of my own, my favorite moment in competitive battling was a few years ago where I used some kind of Ledian in (must have been) the OU tier, very inappropriate, and shut down folks. More than half of the time, I elicited foul language as a result of doing something that 'shoudn't' happen. Was I playing against the first group? I don't know.

Anyway, if the mission of the top players is to, in fact, make small tweaks to how they play the game that give them a competitive advantage in the end, wouldn't that mean everyone would try to go against the grain? Shouldn't the metagame evolve not only when new games introduce new movesets and the like (which is the impression I have...Bullet Punch Scizor was not dreamt up six months after the release of DP, I'm sure).

I concede that it does seem that if someone did try something interesting--that proved to be effective--that it would spread quickly rendering that competitive advantage meaningless...but that returns to the question of how much the metagame evolves without new games agitating it.
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#34uuurrrgghPosted 8/28/2013 12:55:10 PM
I use Smogon as a template, then tweak a few things to be better in their role.

1- Volcarona has Morning Sun instead of Roost, so it can fit better in sun teams

2- Escavalier has Iron Defense instead of Pursuit, giving him much more defensive power, ignoring his weakness to fire. Hell, this guy works fairly well in OU, where fire type moves run rampant

3- Scizor has Muscle Band instead of Leftovers (SD set), so he can attack off the bat as well as set up

These are the tweaks I can think of off the top of my head. While Smogon recommends certain sets, and said sets are very good, you can make changes to make them even better.
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#35Volren617Posted 8/28/2013 1:10:43 PM
RTC3 posted...
what if tc is jumpman from smogon


He's probably giggling to himself somewhere then
#36AtrabiliousPosted 8/28/2013 1:33:18 PM
Because one group doesn't play the way the other group plays, and members of both groups get snide and pissy over it. That's pretty much it.

There are two very distinct types of groups in gaming and it's not something that's exclusive to Pokémon. You get competitive players who want to refine the game down to a science, explore every variable, see what's good, what's bad, what's broken, develop optimal strategies and fight other people who value the same principles. Then you get people who just want to play with everything that came with the game, use whatever they want and see what happens, or use their favourites, or whatever. Neither group is wrong to do what they do, or enjoy their game how they do. The game has an extensive technical and mental skill-set behind it and it's interesting to find out what's good/bad/broken, which comes to the big issue which tends to cause schisms between both groups, we'll call it 'House Rules'.

The former group, through extensive play and testing, finds out what good/bad/broken. Broken tends to be controversial, but for this example I'll define broken as stuff that has the potential to make the game overly simplistic and tedious, or essentially reduces the game down to pot luck. Just for the sake of example, we'll go with Sleep Clause and Evasion Clause. Sleep and evasion abilities are in the game, obviously with the intention of being used. Problem is that without some sort of check these skills become essentially over-powering and pretty much become the crux of battling because they're extremely effective. Arguably too much so. When you don't have a rule saying otherwise, repeatedly getting Breloom Spore'd to game over or getting laughed at by an Evasion Shuckle can get incredibly tedious.

So everyone either runs Insomnia/Vital Spirit/Sleeptalk teams or Unaware/Hazing teams or else risk getting rocked by sleep/evasion spam, Or they run a sleep/evasion team and try to beat the other guy to the punch. This is pretty limiting from a gameplay perspective. So the former group establishes 'House Rules', because they're of the opinion that the vanilla game aspects aren't balanced well enough to be 'fun' (whatever that measure may entail, varies from person to person) or healthy for the competitive battling scene. With these elements limited, stuff (pokemon) that doesn't hard-counter sleep/evasion spam can come into play more viably because they're not locked down by how effective they are. I'm just using those clauses for example, this extends to tiers as well, i.e. Uber pokemon vs. NU pokes. When Ubers aren't running rampant in every tier, other pokemon can shine since they're not going to be curbstomped instantly.

On the other side of the coin, you have people who want to use whatever they want, whenever they want. And they're not wrong to do so, the skill/technique/pokemon/whatever is in the game, which means it's there to be used and as such is fair game. If you can't handle it, well tough luck, maybe you should get better and learn to counter it.

When those two groups butt heads, you get elitist twerps and obnoxious douchenozzles coming out of the woodworks on both sides because their ideals behind how the game should play clash pretty horribly.

Personally I like playing with house rules because I think the game is more interesting when it's played that way, and I find it to be more fun. If you don't like house rules, that's cool, and fair enough.

This was a lot longer than I thought it was going to be.
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#37ClassyOldHatPosted 8/28/2013 2:54:22 PM
Roobitysu posted...
c) I don't get why competitive players are branded as elitist. In fact, it's non-competitives I see that constantly jump into competitive topics to post such useful and constructive things as "Oh, just use whatever you want", "Oh, not everyone cares about competitive", "Oh, this doesn't matter to me; I play for fun (Implying competitive players don't play for fun, too)"


Even as a competitive player myself, I find a lot of Somgon users to be elitist.

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/charizard

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/bottom_barrel

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue19/ladder_fail

Look at these articles and tell me the writers don't come across as arrogant. While there is good advice presented, the way it is presented doesn't seem likely to help anyone. Insulting new players who make common mistakes generally doesn't make them want to take your advice, and often turns them away from your advice, if not the multiplayer scene in it's entirety.
#38PK_GamingPosted 8/28/2013 3:58:38 PM
Is this (set that anyone not new to the series could note is poorly written) the only alternative to the 'right' way(s) to play Hitmonchan? I cannot say for certain because I don't know how much utility Hitmonchan has offhand without looking it up, but I'd like to believe I could design a Hitmonchan 'my' way without external influence, go on a simulator, and surprise a few individuals. The element of surprise wouldn't be there if folks did not expect specific sets from Hitmonchan, right?

Oh no, there are several alternative ways to use Hitmonchan. Off the top of my head, you can use a Substitute + Focus Punch set, Choice Scarf and Choice Band sets, etc. I actually remember a game where a friend of mine lost against someone using Hitmonchan because it ran Focus Punch + Fight Gem.

For quick anecdotal evidence of my own, my favorite moment in competitive battling was a few years ago where I used some kind of Ledian in (must have been) the OU tier, very inappropriate, and shut down folks. More than half of the time, I elicited foul language as a result of doing something that 'shoudn't' happen. Was I playing against the first group? I don't know.


You were definitely playing someone from the first group, unquestionably. A rule of thumb in a serious match is to never underestimate Pokemon.

Anyway, if the mission of the top players is to, in fact, make small tweaks to how they play the game that give them a competitive advantage in the end, wouldn't that mean everyone would try to go against the grain? Shouldn't the metagame evolve not only when new games introduce new movesets and the like (which is the impression I have...Bullet Punch Scizor was not dreamt up six months after the release of DP, I'm sure).


Keep in mind that going against the status quo is difficult. It's hard to make unconventional threats work when the good stuff works so well. You're right though, once someone reinvents the wheel, everyone jumps on it immediately because it tends to be huge. (As an aside, in Bullet Punch Scizor's case, Bullet Punch was a Platinum move tutor)

I concede that it does seem that if someone did try something interesting--that proved to be effective--that it would spread quickly rendering that competitive advantage meaningless...but that returns to the question of how much the metagame evolves without new games agitating it.

True, but if it's an important game (like the tournaments I mentioned) that one game can make a huge difference.
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#39Pikablu45Posted 8/28/2013 4:00:01 PM
zinformant posted...
Vesper238 posted...
I believe the hate is just players thinking that thier favorite pokemon isn't as good as they thought.


Nonsense. Smogon players place arbitrary rules in an attempt to level the battlefield including ones rather anti-RPG. Many of their rules attempt to remove luck from the equation. Luck is a part of this genre. Why do they do it? They believe luck allows the worse player to win. They believe they're the better player. I cannot advocate that kind of arrogance. Additionally, the community stifles creativity because there are 'right' ways to use Pokemon and 'right' Pokemon to use in certain tiers.

Truly, the hate comes from Smogon players when they find Pokemon used unconventionally that kill their act of prediction.


This is a non-argument. Luck shows no skill. Simple.
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#40PK_GamingPosted 8/28/2013 4:00:17 PM
ClassyOldHat posted...
Roobitysu posted...
c) I don't get why competitive players are branded as elitist. In fact, it's non-competitives I see that constantly jump into competitive topics to post such useful and constructive things as "Oh, just use whatever you want", "Oh, not everyone cares about competitive", "Oh, this doesn't matter to me; I play for fun (Implying competitive players don't play for fun, too)"


Even as a competitive player myself, I find a lot of Somgon users to be elitist.

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/charizard

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/bottom_barrel

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue19/ladder_fail

Look at these articles and tell me the writers don't come across as arrogant. While there is good advice presented, the way it is presented doesn't seem likely to help anyone. Insulting new players who make common mistakes generally doesn't make them want to take your advice, and often turns them away from your advice, if not the multiplayer scene in it's entirety.

They're facetious in nature. Trust me, I personally know all of the writers and they're just dicking around. The smog is more or less a riff on the onion. If you wanted objective, useful information you'd read the regular articles.
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