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Why competitive Pokemon fails at a basic level.

#1The Eternal EvilPosted 9/17/2013 4:47:50 AM
Its not balance, its not luck, its not even the rampant out of control hacking. It's the learning curve and the fact you need out of game resources to even have a chance of doing well on a competitive level.

Pokemon, for being a game anyone and everyone can pick up, is not a game that anyone and everyone can learn vital core mechanics within the game needed to even have a chance on a competitive level.

Nintendo and Gamefreak have spent years keeping information required for competitive play as hidden as possible from as many players as possible. Let's assume there are 10 million players who play Pokemon out there. How many do you suppose even know what an Effort Value is and how many Effort Value points you need to have a stat increase of 1 at level 100, how many then do you suppose know the max Effort Values obtainable in any one given stat and the maximum number you can have among all your stats.

If you know the full answers to those questions, tell me, did you learn it within the game, or outside of the game?

How is it something that is so vital to Pokemon gameplay that it has been there since day 1 of Red and Green, not been able to be fully answered on even a basic level within gameplay? To keep it simple for kids?

To make a point, a kid can play chess on a competitive level in Chess by simply learning through the game, a game that has a group of people so devoted to it that it has players who can be called Grand Masters. I'm pretty sure we have yet to have any way to officially call someone a Pokemon Grand Master. World Champion, sure, but we have not yet entered the level of Pokemon where we can say, hey that guy is a Grand Master in Pokemon.

So we have the secret to playing competitively almost entirely locked away from us within the game that should be telling us what we need to know without having to run to a website just to figure out the basic level of how to train a pokemon the way you want it to be trained, and what pokemon you need to beat to do so. And that isn't even going into Initial Values/Inherint Values.

Now this isn't to say Gamefreak, and online sources aren't making an effort, only that we have limited the number of competitive players we could have by making knowledge that is needed to be competitive highly secretive, and for the game to gain a true competitive player base, it needs to stop being a secret within the game so every player can be exposed to it, and be given a chance to throw down in a competition.
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One Trainer to rule them all, One Trainer to find them,
One Trainer to catch them all and in the Pokeball bind them. Legend of Legacy.
#2QualiTPosted 9/17/2013 4:49:03 AM
TLDNR
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All Things Require Sacrifice.
#3EstheimasterPosted 9/17/2013 4:51:15 AM
But Pokemon does have a Grandmaster.



The Grandmaster of All Things Bad
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#4fedartzPosted 9/17/2013 4:53:45 AM
I bet you'll lose to me at chess within four step of the game.
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#5MoonLightCloudPosted 9/17/2013 4:54:54 AM(edited)
Pokemon, for being a game anyone and everyone can pick up, is not a game that anyone and everyone can learn vital core mechanics within the game needed to even have a chance on a competitive level.

Lots of games do this. Only recently have Fighting Games included modes to teach players combos (and even then these usually aren't even really good combos) and frame data (and this is only in a couple games as far as I know).

Do MMOs tell players optimal builds (Genuine question since I don't play MMOs)?

I'm just wondering, how many games out there don't require research to be competitive? I'd say almost none, even Chess requires you to learn different strategies and tactics.
#6SuprSaiyanRockrPosted 9/17/2013 4:58:50 AM
MoonLightCloud posted...
Pokemon, for being a game anyone and everyone can pick up, is not a game that anyone and everyone can learn vital core mechanics within the game needed to even have a chance on a competitive level.

Lots of games do this. Only recently have Fighting Games included modes to teach players combos (and even then these usually aren't even really good combos) and frame data (and this is only in a couple games as far as I know).

Do MMOs tell players optimal builds (Genuine question since I don't play MMOs)?

I'm just wondering, how many games out there don't require research to be competitive? I'd say almost none, even Chess requires you to learn different strategies and tactics.


Even so, he does have a point. As far as I can tell, there are a lot of concepts that are barely touched upon in-game.

IV's, EV's, the effects of natures, as far as I recall, were either only alluded to, or not mentioned.

How would one know to evolve Piloswine to Mamoswine without an external source telling them the steps?
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Efficiency>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nostalgia. Always.
#7Wynters387Posted 9/17/2013 5:00:44 AM(edited)
MoonLightCloud posted...
Pokemon, for being a game anyone and everyone can pick up, is not a game that anyone and everyone can learn vital core mechanics within the game needed to even have a chance on a competitive level.

Lots of games do this. Only recently have Fighting Games included modes to teach players combos (and even then these usually aren't even really good combos) and frame data (and this is only in a couple games as far as I know).

Do MMOs tell players optimal builds (Genuine question since I don't play MMOs)?

I'm just wondering, how many games out there don't require research to be competitive? I'd say almost none, even Chess requires you to learn different strategies and tactics.


You have to go out of the game to learn different optimal builds in MMOs
#8SuprSaiyanRockrPosted 9/17/2013 5:01:37 AM
Though, as far as IV's and EV's go, I don't think GF intended for people to be able to affect and shape those deliberately. Though, with the introduction of Power items, I could be wrong. They seem inconsistent.
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GT/PSN: SuprSaiyanRockr
Efficiency>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nostalgia. Always.
#9SuprSaiyanRockrPosted 9/17/2013 5:02:32 AM
Wynters387 posted...
MoonLightCloud posted...
Pokemon, for being a game anyone and everyone can pick up, is not a game that anyone and everyone can learn vital core mechanics within the game needed to even have a chance on a competitive level.

Lots of games do this. Only recently have Fighting Games included modes to teach players combos (and even then these usually aren't even really good combos) and frame data (and this is only in a couple games as far as I know).

Do MMOs tell players optimal builds (Genuine question since I don't play MMOs)?

I'm just wondering, how many games out there don't require research to be competitive? I'd say almost none, even Chess requires you to learn different strategies and tactics.


You have to go out of the game to learn different optimal builds in MMOs


That's his point. He's justifying it by saying that other games do it as well.
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GT/PSN: SuprSaiyanRockr
Efficiency>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nostalgia. Always.
#10The Eternal Evil(Topic Creator)Posted 9/17/2013 5:03:00 AM
In fighting games you can learn the moves within games. You could play enough times to learn the moves, looking up the moves did make it faster, but the moves were not so hidden they were unlearnable even by accident you could discover it within the game, pinpoint it, and repeat it knowing for certain it works like that, and as you said, even fighting games realized that was a major flaw and now tell you all the moves possible, letting you practice them, this helped open up the competitive community in so doing.

Your example of an MMO and the proper builds however does not hold up as well. They are not a hidden aspect of the game, and a propwr build is actually referred to as an optimal build. Much like there are optimal builds in Pokemon, but in an MMO you can in the very least see what build you actually have.
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One Trainer to rule them all, One Trainer to find them,
One Trainer to catch them all and in the Pokeball bind them. Legend of Legacy.