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Why competitive Pokemon fails at a basic level.

#11slaterastlePosted 9/17/2013 4:04:42 AM
fedartz posted...
I bet you'll lose to me at chess within four step of the game.


Or 2 if you are black and the oponnent is dumb. I've done it, it's rare but ya
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#12CA0001Posted 9/17/2013 4:05:11 AM
TC, you almost made a good argument but because you don't fully understand world class level chess yourself so you've weakened your own points.

You mentioned Pokemon players not knowing the existence of IVs and other hidden factors, the same thing actually exists for chess.

Grandmaster chess players are so good because some of them have achieved a certain feat that normal players cannot achieve. They've combined chess patterns with facial memory, storing chess information in the fusiform face area of the brain.

What does this mean?

Humans are particularly adept at remembering faces, in fact it is the best memory feat we can do without special training. The fusiform face area is specialised in remembering faces and recalling those faces instantaneously to recognise people, even from quick glimpses across a crowd.

Chess grandmasters have trained themselves to recognise chess patterns, billions of them, by storing all the chess information in the fusiform face area. They can completely bypass normal strategic thinking and go straight to the step needed by recognising those patterns and their counters.

If your argument that competitive Pokemon fails consists of hidden factors that players don't know, the same can be argued the same way for chess, nobody even knew what the fusiform face area is.
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#13FullAutoCVTPosted 9/17/2013 4:09:03 AM
If you're saying that a kid could just pick up chess and just "figure out" how to play on a world class level, then you are thinking very naiively. As with everything there are strategies that must be learned, tactics that must be mastered and such. Sure someone could "just figure out" how to build a perfect IV and EV and nature, but that would take forever without hacking into the game's code to understand it, and even then it would take time to do the math. And why bother when you could just ask someone who's willing to tell you?

Do you think champions at sports just play by theirselves until they're awesome? No, they find a coach.

Do you think doctors and scientists just do experiments in their backyard until they've got a license or make a breakthrough? No, they go to school.
#14fedartzPosted 9/17/2013 4:10:47 AM
slaterastle posted...
fedartz posted...
I bet you'll lose to me at chess within four step of the game.


Or 2 if you are black and the oponnent is dumb. I've done it, it's rare but ya


LMAO after TC talk about chess.

He may have the skill to talk a lot

But I doubt he's even an amateur at this games.

You need experience, skill and a good judgement to be a good player.
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#15The Eternal Evil(Topic Creator)Posted 9/17/2013 4:11:29 AM
You can not play enough Pokemon to learn EVs and IVs, you can in fact play enough of an MMO to learn what works best without looking it up. Looking it up makes it "faster" it is not required to learn how to do it.

Just as with fighting games or chess, looking it up makes it faster, you are not required to look it up to learn how to do it.

In Pokemon, to accurately learn EVs and IVs and know a Pokemons specific IV setup, you need to look it up, its not a matter of it makes it faster, you can not accurately determine how many EVs you get in any given battle even if you fight the same pokemon over and over again, you can not accurately guess when you are at maximum and when you need to stop, you can never learn this strictly on your own because there is no actual visible que.

MMO, Fighting games, chess, all their deeper strategies and mechanics, have visible ques for when you accomplish something.
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One Trainer to rule them all, One Trainer to find them,
One Trainer to catch them all and in the Pokeball bind them. Legend of Legacy.
#16The Eternal Evil(Topic Creator)Posted 9/17/2013 4:13:58 AM
I said a kid could play at a competitive level, not a world class level, as in a child can enter chess competition and have performed well on their own understanding.
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One Trainer to rule them all, One Trainer to find them,
One Trainer to catch them all and in the Pokeball bind them. Legend of Legacy.
#17MoonLightCloudPosted 9/17/2013 4:14:43 AM
The Eternal Evil posted...
In fighting games you can learn the moves within games. You could play enough times to learn the moves, looking up the moves did make it faster, but the moves were not so hidden they were unlearnable even by accident you could discover it within the game, pinpoint it, and repeat it knowing for certain it works like that, and as you said, even fighting games realized that was a major flaw and now tell you all the moves possible, letting you practice them, this helped open up the competitive community in so doing.

Your example of an MMO and the proper builds however does not hold up as well. They are not a hidden aspect of the game, and a propwr build is actually referred to as an optimal build. Much like there are optimal builds in Pokemon, but in an MMO you can in the very least see what build you actually have.



Combos, not moves. Of course games have move lists, but they don't tell you what combos/setups you need to learn to be competitive. And you're ignoring the frame data part, which is necessary for knowing which moves are safe and what moves can be used in a combo.

Same thing with MMOs, if they don't tell you how to make an optimal build (by even giving you some direction like what equipment to get and what moves are better than others) then that info is hidden until you do research.

FPS games as well, the game doesn't tell you: "Hey, you can shoot through the wall right here."
You can discover it by chance, but it's more likely that you'll find out from someone or by looking it up online.

Anyway, lots of people know the information is out there, but a lot of them don't even care/think it's too much. I've told about 6 different friends everything there is to know about IVs/EVs and how to EV train and not a one of them became interested in doing it. In fact, they felt like I was ruining Pokemon for them and one of them even shed a tear.

How would one know to evolve Piloswine to Mamoswine without an external source telling them the steps?

I honestly don't know. I can't recall if it was ever hinted at in any of the games.
#18TheWayofPiePosted 9/17/2013 4:15:26 AM
The game itself does not have to teach optimal builds. That's up to the metagame to decide. However the rules about stats should be easy to find. And the game should ease the transition to competetive play.
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#19fedartzPosted 9/17/2013 4:17:05 AM
The Eternal Evil posted...
I said a kid could play at a competitive level, not a world class level, as in a child can enter chess competition and have performed well on their own understanding.


No agree with you in this one.

No agree with you in this one.
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#20Luigi playerPosted 9/17/2013 4:20:08 AM
wrong. the only reason is luck stuff.

there can also never be one "best" guy. only "some really good ones (because they use good strategy and pokemon)", "good ones (because they use a little less good strategy/pokemon)", etc etc.


you can always predict/guess wrong, miss, get otherwise unlucky, etc. someone that wins one tourney was just the one that got the most lucky, and he would probably not win the same tourney even if he played the same people and stuff. (once you played someone they know your strategy and it doesn't work anymore; even if it was still the same, luck could change things up).

Sometimes someone you face just has the right Pokemon to counter your stuff and you lose, even if they aren't one of the best or something.
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