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So what are your thoughts on the Smogon Tier list?

#31Mewtwo_soulPosted 9/26/2013 11:49:08 PM
deidara21 posted...
They ban Genesect and Tornadus T for "overcentralization," yet they still haven't banned weather outside of Ubers. This Gen was weather wars galore. If that isn't overcentralizing, then I have no idea what is.


I agree partially, though to be fair, I think banning of a mechanic (read Weather) is different from banning a paticular Monster.


It'd be like banning a character in SSB over a stage. Where in the stage is the responsible problem not the character. (Which has moves that lead into such a over centralization)

Though I do agree it does seem odd, I'd even argue SR and EH are very over centralizing.
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#32SuperSonicDBZPosted 9/26/2013 11:56:10 PM
Twilight_Sonata posted...
SuperSonicDBZ posted...
I'm guessing they'll make a "Everything Goes" tier one day. I'd love to play in that.

I think there's a thing called Challenge Cup or something like that? It just isn't very big because playing without any Clauses at all is awful.

Sure, you'll have to prepare for Sand Attack everywhere...

Not really. Sand Attack is perfectly allowed is current play. People just don't use it because it isn't very good. Moves that lower the opponent's stats, in general, aren't very good because they can be negated entirely be switching out. That's not so with Evasion-boosting moves, though.


Hmm, didn't know any of those. And the reason I asked about a "Everything Goes" tier is so that people can just play with the Pokemon they raised in their main game. Maybe it's just me, but after I beat the main game, I do NOT plan on raising a new team and EV training or Nature farming or any of that stuff. That's why I like the tournaments where you can just use your in-game party and battle in challenging tournament formats. Pokemon Stadium 1 did that mostly, but I don't remember them doing level balancing.

I suppose someone would go in with all ubers in the challenge cup and wreck people, but isn't the whole idea of playing Pokemon about sport? I mean if you wanted to win, don't you just go to the regular tiers?

Meh, this is why I just don't get competitive battling. It's probably not for me. :( It's fun to watch at least. But all those clauses and stuff make me sad. Just let us battle with the rules Nintendo sets up for us. No legendaries, standard sleep and item clause.

... waitaminute. Do the Nintendo tournaments use Smogon rules? What the heck do they use?! And if people have to EV train for official tourneys... why do they make them so hard to train up?

I give. Mixed messages and all.
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#33deidara21Posted 9/26/2013 11:56:54 PM
Mewtwo_soul posted...
deidara21 posted...
They ban Genesect and Tornadus T for "overcentralization," yet they still haven't banned weather outside of Ubers. This Gen was weather wars galore. If that isn't overcentralizing, then I have no idea what is.


I agree partially, though to be fair, I think banning of a mechanic (read Weather) is different from banning a paticular Monster.


It'd be like banning a character in SSB over a stage. Where in the stage is the responsible problem not the character. (Which has moves that lead into such a over centralization)

Though I do agree it does seem odd, I'd even argue SR and EH are very over centralizing.


They did it for lower tiers, why not for OU? They try to make balance, but remove any sense of it by keeping weather in their tiers.

Rain, Sun, and Sand are the main focus for a majority of teams and thus cause other players to make sure they have dedicated counters. This caused the sudden, and very surprising, rise of Dugtrio. Blaziken caused a lot of people to carry dedicated counters, just like what the weather inducers do.

I appreciate what smogon does, but they need to stop with the double standards. "Genesect is too good, let's attempt to get him banned" Well Rain/Sand/Sun is even better than that one pokemon.
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#34Mewtwo_soulPosted 9/26/2013 11:59:16 PM
deidara21 posted...
Mewtwo_soul posted...
deidara21 posted...
They ban Genesect and Tornadus T for "overcentralization," yet they still haven't banned weather outside of Ubers. This Gen was weather wars galore. If that isn't overcentralizing, then I have no idea what is.


I agree partially, though to be fair, I think banning of a mechanic (read Weather) is different from banning a paticular Monster.


It'd be like banning a character in SSB over a stage. Where in the stage is the responsible problem not the character. (Which has moves that lead into such a over centralization)

Though I do agree it does seem odd, I'd even argue SR and EH are very over centralizing.


They did it for lower tiers, why not for OU? They try to make balance, but remove any sense of it by keeping weather in their tiers.

Rain, Sun, and Sand are the main focus for a majority of teams and thus cause other players to make sure they have dedicated counters. This caused the sudden, and very surprising, rise of Dugtrio. Blaziken caused a lot of people to carry dedicated counters, just like what the weather inducers do.

I appreciate what smogon does, but they need to stop with the double standards. "Genesect is too good, let's attempt to get him banned" Well Rain/Sand/Sun is even better than that one pokemon.



Again, I think it's less of double standards, and more they want to create a diverse metagame by keeping weather. (And EH) which ironically does the exact opposite. Go figure.
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Only insecure and ignorant people try to debase someone online based on their username.
#35I am a fishPosted 9/27/2013 12:24:16 AM(edited)
SuperSonicDBZ posted...
Twilight_Sonata posted...
SuperSonicDBZ posted...
I'm guessing they'll make a "Everything Goes" tier one day. I'd love to play in that.

I think there's a thing called Challenge Cup or something like that? It just isn't very big because playing without any Clauses at all is awful.

Sure, you'll have to prepare for Sand Attack everywhere...

Not really. Sand Attack is perfectly allowed is current play. People just don't use it because it isn't very good. Moves that lower the opponent's stats, in general, aren't very good because they can be negated entirely be switching out. That's not so with Evasion-boosting moves, though.


Hmm, didn't know any of those. And the reason I asked about a "Everything Goes" tier is so that people can just play with the Pokemon they raised in their main game. Maybe it's just me, but after I beat the main game, I do NOT plan on raising a new team and EV training or Nature farming or any of that stuff. That's why I like the tournaments where you can just use your in-game party and battle in challenging tournament formats. Pokemon Stadium 1 did that mostly, but I don't remember them doing level balancing.

I suppose someone would go in with all ubers in the challenge cup and wreck people, but isn't the whole idea of playing Pokemon about sport? I mean if you wanted to win, don't you just go to the regular tiers?

Meh, this is why I just don't get competitive battling. It's probably not for me. :( It's fun to watch at least. But all those clauses and stuff make me sad. Just let us battle with the rules Nintendo sets up for us. No legendaries, standard sleep and item clause.

... waitaminute. Do the Nintendo tournaments use Smogon rules? What the heck do they use?! And if people have to EV train for official tourneys... why do they make them so hard to train up?

I give. Mixed messages and all.

1. If you're asking for an "anything goes" tier, people will still want to do the best in that tier, and as such put in the training in order to make the best possible pokemon. Nothing stops you from using your in-game team in this hypothetical tier or in any of the established tiers, it just most likely won't be effective and you'll see a lot of losses.

2. The VGC format, used for official Nintendo tournaments, vary in some ways compared to Smogon's rulesets, but otherwise the same structure is in place. And EV/IV training isn't difficult, just time consuming. And even then, there are multiple ways to cut down that time. But you still have to put in time to get an effective team and learn how to use it; the same goes for every competition out there, video game or not. If someone can go into a competition with little preparation and still do well, it wouldn't be a very competitive event to begin with.
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#36DonniedonzPosted 9/27/2013 12:27:00 AM
Generally speaking I think their tier lists are fine, and I understand their reasons for being as they are based on my educated perspective. Some of their complex bans annoy me, but it's alright as they're pretty good about not going overboard with it. (Side note: as a DS wifi player, I can safely say I have NEVER had trouble with Speed Boost Blaziken and I encounter it often.)

I will say, though, that I think a lot of the hate Smogon gets from people is due to a lack of understanding. They think, "Oh, my favorite Pokemon ____ isn't in the higher tiers. Therefor, Smogon and the people that follow their "ruleset" think the Pokemon sucks." Little do they realize that it's not even about that.
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#37meiyukiPosted 9/27/2013 8:07:10 AM
SuperSonicDBZ posted...

Hmm, didn't know any of those. And the reason I asked about a "Everything Goes" tier is so that people can just play with the Pokemon they raised in their main game. Maybe it's just me, but after I beat the main game, I do NOT plan on raising a new team and EV training or Nature farming or any of that stuff. That's why I like the tournaments where you can just use your in-game party and battle in challenging tournament formats. Pokemon Stadium 1 did that mostly, but I don't remember them doing level balancing.


Well there are still natural tiers because some pokemon are just better than others. That aside official rules are actually almost exactly what you're asking for. Certain legendaries are banned and a few specific moves but it's largely an anything goes format. You can google the official tournament rules. That's why I said their own rules influence the tier list, and some of the things they claim will happen without their rules don't really materialize.
#38CakeOfLiesPosted 9/27/2013 8:09:23 AM
They're accurate for which Pokemon are good and which Pokemon are bad.
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#39TerradriusPosted 9/27/2013 8:19:28 AM(edited)
SuperSonicDBZ posted...
Meh, this is why I just don't get competitive battling. It's probably not for me. :( It's fun to watch at least. But all those clauses and stuff make me sad. Just let us battle with the rules Nintendo sets up for us. No legendaries, standard sleep and item clause.

... waitaminute. Do the Nintendo tournaments use Smogon rules? What the heck do they use?! And if people have to EV train for official tourneys... why do they make them so hard to train up?

I give. Mixed messages and all.


Nintendo tournaments are almost always doubles (at least the bigger ones), and typically use the standard Wifi rules. Bring 6 pokemon, choose 4 for each battle, item clause, no cover legendaries or event legendaries (all other legendaries are 100% allowed). There is no sleep clause (spam spore to your heart's content - in fact, I believe doing exactly that is how one of the last big winners won) or evasion clause or OHKO clause or anything like that.
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#40rioCLASHPosted 9/27/2013 8:20:43 AM
lol smogon more like smogOFF m i rite?! lolololol
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