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So what are your thoughts on the Smogon Tier list?

#41lavos24551hPosted 9/27/2013 8:29:52 AM(edited)
Smogon can kiss my hairy bum, for the record i dont hate smogon cus of some tier-listing of pokemon and my faves not being in the higher tiers, i hate them because they really ARE full of double-standards, theres no "lack of understanding" involved as the one guy in page 4 stated, it doesnt take intense thought to see what the problems with smogons rulings and bannings are, their bannings are often blanket and usually senseless too cus they ban one thing but something just as bad or even worse gets to stay...oh right ,we call that a Double Standard, where you let one bad thing slide but punish another for the same reason, go figure!

to me, preventing people from using stuff just cus of some false sense of "etiquette" just takes fun out of the game

plus half the banned pokemon under Smogon could easilly be un-banned if you just restricted specific aspects of them, like blaziken being banned ONLY if it had Speed Boost, or Garchomp with Sand Veil etc

but Smogon is terrible with their blanket-bans on pokemon

whats the point in having a set of rules for Competitive Battling if the rules just dumb down the game and make it less fun or challenging and completely remove certain pokemon even if those pokemon are only OP in certain combos of moves/stats/abilities

just a buncha nonsense if you ask me

so even fi i get into competitive again with gen 6, i wont be following that balogna and if people dont want to challenge me cus of that, fine, their loss. i refuse to bow down to a set of rules which takes away part of the fun in the games all because it seems to think it understands whats fair and not when it really is no entity for which to judge such things

ill find people who dont care if Smogon's rulings are followed or not and battle them, and itll be perfectly fine
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#42meiyukiPosted 9/27/2013 8:26:31 AM
Terradrius posted...
There is no sleep clause (spam spore to your heart's content - in fact, I believe doing exactly that is how one of the last big winners won) or evasion clause or OHKO clause or anything like that.


I don't think he ever had more than one asleep at the same time. It obviously doesn't change you point. He was spamming spore in the fights and he was able to be faster than the threat that would counter spore which played a big factor in the win.
#43WobbuffetGodPosted 9/27/2013 8:48:15 AM
Donniedonz posted...
I will say, though, that I think a lot of the hate Smogon gets from people is due to a lack of understanding. They think, "Oh, my favorite Pokemon ____ isn't in the higher tiers. Therefor, Smogon and the people that follow their "ruleset" think the Pokemon sucks." Little do they realize that it's not even about that.


This is very true.

The way I see it, there are probably 3 main categories of people who dislike Smogon. First are the people who don't understand competitive battling itself. They see that a Pokemon they like is being called bad and assume that the place saying so must be stupid. They don't know much about stats or strategies, and often only play either ingame or against like minded players. To them, the very concept of what Smogon and many other sites do is a foreign one, and when they see it, they immediately dislike it.

Second are the people who know about competitive battling, and even may like some of what Smogon does, in theory, but hates them because of the specific bans. This includes the people who think all weather should be banned, Stealth Rock should be banned, Blaze Blaziken unbanned, etc. While they seem to know more, these people are nearly as misguided as the first group. Their hatred for the organization comes from disagreement with the decisions, and they usually act as if it is some nameless black box spitting out rules without reason. In reality, every single decision made is made by groups of people who have played thousands of battles and debated for days on end. And it is not some big consensus on every decision, things are done by votes and often times there are many people within Smogon itself who don't like the outcome. Not everyone can be pleased, so hating something because they have a different opinion from you is stupid, especially when you always have the ability to join right in and be a part of the decision making process yourself.

The last group is probably the only one that has any grievance that actually holds water, and they are the people who know the inside of Smogon, and dislike it because of the structure and culture that make it up. Smogon can definitely seem elitist. While anyone can have their voice heard in the tiering discussions, the decisions on who will be the leaders of such discussions, who decides what should be going to a vote and what not, are held behind closed doors. Even those who have earned themselves badges and access to the inside scoop forums don't always get full access to these discussions. Additionally, when it comes to those who are heavily involved, the leadership structure itself can sometimes upset people. I'm not one of those people, so I won't go into any more detail than that, but I have known people who have quit the site due to frustration with those in charge.

So, yeah, while there are definite reasons why people might dislike a place like Smogon, the majority of complaints, the ones about the specifics of tiers and bans, are mostly baseless ranting from uninformed people who would rather complain about how someone disagrees with them than actually learn how the system works and try and get them to change their mind.
#44ZTIger5Posted 9/27/2013 8:49:04 AM
Don't give a Bidoof.
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#45meiyukiPosted 9/27/2013 8:56:21 AM
WobbuffetGod posted...

The last group is probably the only one that has any grievance that actually holds water, and they are the people who know the inside of Smogon, and dislike it because of the structure and culture that make it up. Smogon can definitely seem elitist.


I would argue they don't just seem elitist they are to some degree. Now I respect anyone who instead of whining about official rules goes on and does their own thing so they can play they way they want. However, when it comes to the case they make for some rules and things they really come off as implying a tournament under official rules is this catastrophe and only their rules make pokemon fun.

Don't misunderstand I do respect them quite a bit, I just don't think the elitist accusation is entirely unfounded with them.
#46spooky96Posted 9/27/2013 9:12:38 AM
NessEggman posted...
People who hate them don't understand competitive play nor metagame communities.

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#47Twilight_SonataPosted 9/27/2013 9:20:18 AM(edited)
lavos24551h posted...
plus half the banned pokemon under Smogon could easilly be un-banned if you just restricted specific aspects of them, like blaziken being banned ONLY if it had Speed Boost, or Garchomp with Sand Veil etc

Do you seriously not realize how impractical that would be? If you allow Blaze Blaziken, then the only way to be consistent about that kind of ruling is to allow every Uber Pokemon. Excadrill without Sand Rush, Ho-Oh without Sacred Flame, Shaymin as long as it isn't Timid, Manaphy but it can't hold Leftovers, Genesect but it has to have 0 Speed IVs, Lugia but it can't have any EVs at all, Arceus but it can't be above level 75... And for every one of those and more, there will be countless debates or what's actually the best way to depower them. Maybe Speed Boost Blaziken is fine if it's not allowed to know Protect.
#48CakeOfLiesPosted 9/27/2013 9:20:25 AM
spooky96 posted...
NessEggman posted...
People who hate them don't understand competitive play nor metagame communities.

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#49DarkKirby2500Posted 9/27/2013 9:23:13 AM
I blame Game Freak for not caring enough about balance more than I blame Smogon for making some decisions I disagree with.
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#50WobbuffetGodPosted 9/27/2013 9:23:36 AM
meiyuki posted...

I would argue they don't just seem elitist they are to some degree. Now I respect anyone who instead of whining about official rules goes on and does their own thing so they can play they way they want. However, when it comes to the case they make for some rules and things they really come off as implying a tournament under official rules is this catastrophe and only their rules make pokemon fun.

Don't misunderstand I do respect them quite a bit, I just don't think the elitist accusation is entirely unfounded with them.


A lot of people claim Smogon is elitist and thinks they are better than everyone else. And its true. We are better than everyone else.

JK, but yeah, I won't disagree with you. There is definitely at least some sense of real elitism there. But honestly, I don't personally see that as a bad thing. While it can be off putting to some, especially before you get to know much (or after you know too much), I would honestly be shocked if such a community as Smogon could exist without being at least somewhat elitist. After all, the entire concept of usage based tiers is dependant on the idea of people always playing to win, and in a culture where winning is paramount, I feel a sense of elitism is just bound to develop to some extent.