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GameFreak, something needs to be done about the gyms.

#201ScarlettailPosted 10/20/2013 4:34:52 PM
Sloth9230 posted...
Scarlettail posted...
Sloth9230 posted...
Scarlettail posted...
Pentao posted...
Can you guys stop suggesting things that are essentially "make grinding harder" and just you know, play the part of the game meant to be a challenge, like the Battle Facilities? Or online competitive?


One shouldn't have to rely on the post game for the only source of challenge.


one should not be looking for challenge in a game series that was never challenging in the first place. Does Mario need blood and gore just because you want a game with blood and gore? No, go look for a challenge elsewhere.


Never challenging? That's a matter of opinion. I can think of many challenging battles I've had throughout Pokemon games, such as gym leaders, rivals, elite four or team leaders. I'm not asking for a super hard game, just some intensity. For example, we had 5 Pokemon per elite four member until last gen. Why did this have to change? Asking for them to have 5 again is not too much to ask.

Mario is actually a good example of a series for kids that also has fun challenge.

Pretty sure B/W's elite four also had just 4 pokemon. However, they only use Unova pokemon and don't use pre-evos as filler so they at least have a valid excuse. Yeah, Bruno had 5 pokemon, too bad two of them were Onix -_-

But I agree, and I don't see any logical reason why the best trainers don't have a team of 6, and if they do, why do they hold back?

Why did Lance not crush Ethan with his team of OP dragons from the beginning? Unlike gym leaders, it makes no sense at all for the E4 and champ to hold back.


By previous gen, I meant gen 5 and B/W. Every other gen gave the Elite 4 5 Pokemon, and there were no complaints. I'd like it if the E4 and champ were actually among the toughest challenges. I remember being intimidated by a few of them in older games, and even losing here or there, even in Gen 4.
#202Sloth9230Posted 10/20/2013 4:42:08 PM
cloudrivera posted...
Sloth9230 posted...
cloudrivera posted...
Sloth9230 posted...
cloudrivera posted...
They should just make it so that gym leaders and elite four scale with the player. You have a level 45 starter? Well say hello to a level 45 Lucario lol


And what happens once said Lucario and starter knock each other out?


My Delphox wouldn't get knocked out by him :)


But your Greninja would. So what happens after? Do you have to face a level 43 Machamp with your level 30 Gogoat? Welp, you just lost. Now go grind that Gogat to level 43 and remember to Box your Greninja so you don't accidentally make Lucario stronger.

See, everyone always 'throws "level scaling" out there a sif it would solve all the problems with these games, but no one ever thinks things through as to what other consequences it would have. Mostly that level scaling the NPC's to your strongest mons adds a lot of pointless grinding that your weaker mons now have to go through.


That's what Exp share is for, so that your other pokes could catch up. The game would be much more challenging if you fought them at the same levels. Plus you have access to items. You can revive pokes that have died


The EXP share only gives 50% EXP, which means your other mons will still need their private training time. Yes, private. That means boxing everything you're not trying to catch up, because otherwise you risk also leveling up stuff that was already over leveled and that would in turn make your grinding session longer.

Greninja and Lucario are level 45
Machamp is level 43
Gogoat and the rest of team are level 30 thanks to the EXP share.


Options:

1. turn off Exp hare and grind everything manually.
2. Box over leveled mons and grind everything to their level, boxing each mon individually once it has caught up.

Either way, the game just became a lot more time consuming, but not actually harder.

Personally, I think Gym matches should be handled PWT style. All levels are set and both sides use the same amount of pokemon, but that might be too hard for some kids.
#203Sloth9230Posted 10/20/2013 4:45:32 PM
Scarlettail posted...
even in Gen 4.


Gen 4 probably had the best E4, they didn't use useless filler pre-evos. Even if some of them had to use pokemon from other types, which really only made them less predictable.
#204QueskerPosted 10/20/2013 5:02:09 PM(edited)
I've read through this topic a bit, agree with the "veterans will have an easier time with it", etc. However, from where I stand, when I was at the 2nd gym, I had five official team members, and the leader's Pokemon and my team were around the same level (25). Granted, I did have the EXP Share turned off, but still, what are you guys doing that seem to over-level you guys?

Also, there's one aspect that I am disappointed NO ONE brought up: The fact that the mere act of capturing Pokemon gives you experience as well. Maybe that explains why some of your Pokemon are over-leveled for catch-aholics?

EDIT:
GastroFan posted...
There is one thing I've noticed that Game Freak added which it appears nobody's noticed. Whenever you catch a pokemon, you now gain experience; so if you catch all the pokemon in an area you can jump a level or two that way. I don't remember GF giving you experience for catching pokemon in any of the previous games but might be wrong on that score.



...
.....
.....ninja'd.

I'm not sure if anyone else has been ninja'd this hard before.
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#205ScarlettailPosted 10/20/2013 5:41:02 PM
I was curious, so I checked the numbers on gym leaders to see the actual difference in difficulty.

Average # of Pokemon per gym leader per generation:
1. 3.375 8th gym: 5

2. 3.5625 (including all 16) 8th gym: Claire, 4. Blue, 6

3. R/S: 3 Last gym: 5
E: 3.875 (highest one, almost 4 Pokemon) 8th gym: 5

4. D/P/Pl: 3.25 8th gym: 4

5. B/W: 2.75 8th gym: 3
B/W2: 2.75 8th gym: 3

6. 2.75 8th gym: 3

Of course, the number of Pokemon is not the ultimate caliber of difficulty, but clearly the number has gone down recently, and it doesn't feel necessary.
#206superzero122591Posted 10/20/2013 6:13:23 PM
Quesker posted...
I've read through this topic a bit, agree with the "veterans will have an easier time with it", etc. However, from where I stand, when I was at the 2nd gym, I had five official team members, and the leader's Pokemon and my team were around the same level (25). Granted, I did have the EXP Share turned off, but still, what are you guys doing that seem to over-level you guys?

Also, there's one aspect that I am disappointed NO ONE brought up: The fact that the mere act of capturing Pokemon gives you experience as well. Maybe that explains why some of your Pokemon are over-leveled for catch-aholics?

EDIT:
GastroFan posted...
There is one thing I've noticed that Game Freak added which it appears nobody's noticed. Whenever you catch a pokemon, you now gain experience; so if you catch all the pokemon in an area you can jump a level or two that way. I don't remember GF giving you experience for catching pokemon in any of the previous games but might be wrong on that score.



...
.....
.....ninja'd.

I'm not sure if anyone else has been ninja'd this hard before.


I've already mentioned this as well, specifically when I stated how it was obvious that the compensation for this is the ludicrous levels of the Gyms. Gym 2 is level 25. Go compare that to previous gen Gym 2.
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#207ZombieAkanePosted 10/20/2013 6:39:43 PM
Give gymleaders more Pokemon.

1st gym leader 3 pkm
2nd 4 pkm
3rd 4 pkm
4th 4 pkm
5th-7th 5 pkm
8th 6 pkm
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"If I facepalm as hard as I wanted to it would be a mortal kombat fatality" - knightimex
#208Bass50Posted 10/20/2013 7:10:52 PM
superzero122591 posted...
I'm not sure what you mean by saying 'Use the EXP for'. I would assume you mean EXP share.


Yeah, typo on my part.

superzero122591 posted...
Regardless. I don't know how this is any different then any other game? The first two gyms tend to be difficult, and the rest become cake walks. Whether you're the same level or higher, this is almost always true.

I don't know how other people can be so overleveled if they only catch single pokemon and don't battle other wild pokemon other then those, on top of avoiding almost all trainer battles unless forced. This is what I do in every game, even this one, and I haven't been overleveled for any of them.


So wait, people shouldn't expect any sort of challenge by playing the game the way it was meant to be played? I played the game like I've played every other game in the series, aside from using Poke'Mon Amie. Shouldn't Gamefreak have accounted for the boosted experience from this and leveled up the gym leaders a bit and improved trainer AI altogether? After all they did program the game.

superzero122591 posted...
My run through of nearly every pokemon game: From routes 1-7ish(Or equivalent), I make an attempt to catch all pokemon in the routes. I flee from all extras. Any avoidable trainers, I avoid, even in gyms.

It's been this way every generation and I'm always the same level. Even in this game, where capturing pokemon grants experience.


So you admit that you made a conscious effort to make the games harder? First off, gen 1-5 actually challenged the player a bit. I could dig up my copy of Blue or Yellow and start playing it right now with a Bulbasaur as my starter and fight any trainers I come across and still be challenged. I could make a decent team and still have to hyper potion spam against Lance; again, playing the games as they are meant to be played, battling trainers and catching pokemon.

superzero122591 posted...
Surely people realize the second gym's pokemon are the same as Gyms 3-4 in previous games to compensate for this, don't they? Two level 25's as the second gym, where as in the previous games standard was around level 14 or 15.


Gym 4-6 in X and Y are pretty close in levels, with the strongest of gym 6 only being eight levels higher than gym four's. Oh, and gym 2 and 3 are only seven levels apart. With the route length in these games, they should be a bit higher, no? Or have 4-5 pokemon from gym 5 onward.

superzero122591 posted...
I don't understand how people can say there was no compensation for it.

Either way, my point still stands that this game is as easy as all the pokemon games previous.


Uh, no, it's easier. Use Poke'Mon Amie and the EXP Share while playing the game as it was meant to be played; not adhering to some made up limitations to make it more challenging and it's super easy, more so than previous gens. Game length =/= difficulty and while X and Y are longer, it's like they are set on a permanent easy mode.

There are plenty of ways this could have been fixed: Cut the EXP from Poke'Mon Amie, keep the experience points earned with the EXP share split for the pokemon that compete, keep the EXP split when more than one pokemon competes, level up the leaders and trainers to compensate for the extra features AND the extended routes with more trainers AND the experience from catching pokemon instead of just compensating for one of those things with slightly ramped up gym leaders and E4. Or, they could have added a difficulty setting at the beginning of the game. After the third and even fourth gym, I would have willingly deleted my save and started a new one if it meant being able to change the difficulty setting.
#209ZombieAkanePosted 10/20/2013 9:45:35 PM
gmes tooo easy
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"If I facepalm as hard as I wanted to it would be a mortal kombat fatality" - knightimex
#210james009223Posted 10/22/2013 3:44:07 AM
Bump
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