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Why Are Grass Starters always awful?

#31ToughestPosted 2/10/2014 1:41:41 PM(edited)
the only one i liked was from the first generation, and that was Venusaur

i never choose grass starter, the fire and water starters are always better, except for the 5th generation...
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#32NeoSioTypePosted 2/10/2014 2:21:06 PM
"I can't deny that Grass-type Pokémon have many weak points. But I'll show you that's not the only factor in deciding who wins!"

--Gardenia

Even gamefreak knows it. Sleep powder, leech seed and synthesis are great in-game moves though.
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#33Hi-Ho-Diddly-DoPosted 2/10/2014 2:28:21 PM
NeoSioType posted...
"I can't deny that Grass-type Pokémon have many weak points. But I'll show you that's not the only factor in deciding who wins!"

--Gardenia

Even gamefreak knows it. Sleep powder, leech seed and synthesis are great in-game moves though.

It's funnier with Ice. Here's some of Wulfric's dialogue.

"Ice is both extremely hard and terribly fragile at the same time. You know what that means? Depending on which Pokémon you choose and what moves they use, I could be your most challenging opponent yet or I could be a total pushover. But that's all right. That's how it should be!"

...

"I hope you've learned a valuable lesson today. Being rigid can make you tough, but it will also render you fragile. You're better off being flexible. You know what I mean? Some people are fluid like water and can adapt to their environment without changing what's important on the inside. Not me, though. I guess I'm too stubborn. Maybe that's why I love Ice types."


They weren't even being subtle with that last part.
#34pushstart89Posted 2/10/2014 2:45:59 PM
NeoSioType posted...
"I can't deny that Grass-type Pokémon have many weak points. But I'll show you that's not the only factor in deciding who wins!"

--Gardenia

Even gamefreak knows it. Sleep powder, leech seed and synthesis are great in-game moves though.


Perfect quote. Grass types as a whole are extremely underrated. Mega Venasaur is one of the best (non broken) Mega evolutions in the metagame atm & Chesnaught whilst not as effective as Greninja has more potential than it's given credit for.
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#35brawl__08Posted 2/12/2014 10:54:36 PM
Hi-Ho-Diddly-Do posted...
Bulbasaur is really solid. Beating Misty is good, and Sleep Powder capturing and battling a lot easier. When compared to Squirtle and Charmander, I'd say it's on-par with Charmander (Who has trouble with Misty but is better offensively) and behind Squirtle (Who shines through the entire game because Water+Blizzard=win).

Treeko is the worst of the Hoenn starters, but that's not saying much because all three are great (With Mudkip being the best). It has a poor movepool at first, but then it gets some decent attacks and just wrecks most of the Water Pokemon in the later game with its high Special Attack and Speed. Sure, it can't beat Wingull and Tentacool, but you don't actually fight wild Pokemon with something that fast and trainers have way more varied teams. It's best in Emerald where it just destroys Wallace when combined with any Pokemon with a decent Grass attack.

Turtwig is slow, but it has decent power and a nice level-up moveset. Once it reaches Torterra status, it becomes a lot nicer because URFQUAKE beats in-game battles handily. It's completely outclassed by the other two starters, but it's not bad by any means (And Piplup's completely outclassed by Chimchar anyway).

Snivy is pretty awful in-game until you start reaching longer battles where Coil->Sweep begins to shine. Still, that movepool is dreadful outside of Coil and Leech Seed. It's sad, because Serperior could have been really solid if its movepool was anywhere near as good as Chikorita's.

Speaking of Chikorita, its problem surprisingly isn't that it sucks or that its movepool sucks; its problem is that Johto screws it. Terrible matchups against the gyms, terrible matchups against Team Rocket, terrible matchups against the Elite 4. Being a defensive Pokemon would be bad enough, but its real issue is that it just doesn't get any advantageous matchups. If there were Water, Rock, and Ground gyms in Johto instead of Kanto and we were fighting Team Aqua instead of Team Rocket, maybe Chikorita wouldn't suck in-game.

Chespin... Well, it had the makings of a great starter. Its main weakness is that it doesn't learn any decent Fighting attacks for most of its life. It might be better than Froakie because it can take a hit and actually deal damage, but Fennekin is clearly the best starter in-game.


RotomGuy3 posted...
Usually, they are aesthetically the best. IMO.


These two posts.

If it weren't for Chestnaught, I'd say there was never an ugly grass starter.
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#36Rayquaza_is_ZPosted 2/12/2014 10:56:48 PM
Opinions, onions.

Meh, people always looking at the negatives instead of the positives Grass types bring to the table. Let's not forget the fact that Chesnaught is one of the only few Pokemon to resists EdgeQuake. In yo' face!
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#37KantonosoPosted 2/12/2014 11:20:42 PM
You complained about when Bulbasaur learns moves so I'm assuming you mean for progressing the story:


Short answer: They're tactical and clearly anyone who calls them awful lacks the brain power that even my 10 year old self was able to put to use in gen 1. Also everyone else usually takes fire starters so....


Long answer:

Grass types are not sweepers, in general. I'm not saying grass types CAN'T Sweep (Treecko line has the speed to pull it off) but they're mainly debilitators and facilitators. Sleep powder, leech seed, they are not built around raw damage. Which is AWESOME if you're not either an utter moron who can't understand basic strategy, or playing competitively because of sleep clauses and the like.

It does not help that their weaknesses are common. Fire, Flying, and Ice are common attacks to have, even though reasons (including stealth rock) tend to keep these moves from getting STAB bonus too often. But thye also get some common advantages as well. They resist electricity, for example, and have a great edge against water (STAB weakness while resisting water) Mono-type grass types are also reasonably uncommon by comparison to mixed typing, which can be... interesting.

Yes, the Phys/Special split screwed Bulbasaur in early levels, but there's ways around it! The Nature Power TM is a good special attack without being too far in (Energy Ball in grassy regions.) and of couse you still have his powders and leech seed! He also gets STAB on sludge bomb, which is nice, too.

Chikorita does get screwed over by the region, as said before. First few gyms were Flying, Bug, Normal, and Ghost. So say it with me: Crap, Crap, Meh, Crap. It's stats are also more defensive, so it's opponents do not die quickly. It aslo has fewer ailments than most grass types. It's trcky to field well but it makes a decent wall, with it's defenses + Synthesis.

Treecko... I'll refrain from commenting as I only researched it in theory, I never actually took it.

Turtwig? It REALLY shines if you use it right. It's slow anyway, so Curse does not hurt it, and throw Leech Seed into th mix, it's a physical tank. In doubles, try fielding it beside Blissey, for example, and Leech seeding all three othr pokes besides Torterra. I'm not joking. Leech seeding your own partner Blissey gives Torterra substantial regen, as well as the benefit of light screen. Just one example of how to make grass good.

Snivy: No comment. Actively skipped gen 5.

Chespin: This grass starter is closer to a "sandard" non-grass strter which may explain why people despising methods other than sweeping would favor it over the other grasses. No real comment.
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#38DemiseEndPosted 2/12/2014 11:21:14 PM
Bulbasaur is pretty broken in gen 1, thanks to op razor leaf. Its only bad points is mt moon, and its a rare kind of pokemon who massively benefits from getting hm move(cut). Not to mention a solid choice for sd tm and have leech seed toxic combo.

Also don't forget that Bulbasaur trivializes Lance team. Dragonair, Dragonite literally can't attack Venusaur. Gyara and Aero loses to "insert spammed move here"


Chikorita would be a god in gen 1, getting Body Slam and Razor Leaf early.but thanks to the gym set up, its good match up is Chuck, Jasmine(questionable, but magnemite does jack and Steelix have no fire move to abuse its Sunny Day), Pryce, and Kingdra owned by Claire which is hilarious


Sceptile is terrible before lB and still not that good after

Torterra is good

Serp with Boost is hilarious

Chesnaught is decent, but Bulbasaur is absurd in this gen. It get base 130 STAB at level 10, when Charmander's is base 40 at best, while after it become Venusaur, it got 120 STAB while Charmander's strongest move is like... Base 75, which means the only pokemon that it can't beat is Skarmory. To put this into perspective, Venusaur is comparable to Megazard Y without using Mega.
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