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How important is it for 130+ base stat pokemon to boost with that same nature?

#1DrunkenPilot72Posted 2/13/2014 3:25:58 PM
I'm asking with mostly Jolteon and speed in mind but this question applies to any pokemon who is in the top 1% of any given stat: how important is it to completely max out a stat with a boosting nature + max EV investment when that pokemon is already peerless for that stat?

For the speed stat there are only 4 pokemon with 130 base speed and only 6 pokemon who are faster ( not counting the Mega Forms of Aerodactyl and Mewtwo who are both 130 normally) so what exactly is driving the top 1% to go even faster? At 130 speed they beat anything at 80 or below after 1 speed boost (most notorious being Dragonite and Gyrados and even then they never run Jolly) but lose to anything even moderately fast with a Scarf.

Assuming we are raising a Mewtwo or Jolteon with a Modest nature and no speed invesment, what exactly catches up to them? What about Modest with max speed investment?
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#2Moe_Lester_13Posted 2/13/2014 3:28:54 PM
You'll have quite a few Jolly Choice Scarfed Mons killing your Jolteon with an EQ or EP. You wont be expecting them to outspeed, and BAM. You're dead. Jolteon is too frail to risk letting anyone have the first move.
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#3bwebber17Posted 2/13/2014 3:31:21 PM
You have to play to a Pokemon's strength.

Jolteon's biggest claim to fame is that it's faster than just about everything you would face. If you don't run Timid, you've automatically lost the biggest reason why Jolteon is even any good.
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#4iamBGSPosted 2/13/2014 3:35:46 PM
Plus it's just sound math in most cases. Natures are percentage based (10% boost or drop) so the higher the stat to begin with, the greater the benefit of a plus nature in that stat. Plus, as people have pointed out, Jolteon isn't going to last through any physical hits, so you want to do everything you can to make sure it hits first.
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#5SorceressTharjaPosted 2/13/2014 3:56:43 PM(edited)
Firstly, Dragon Dance sets of Dragonite and Gyarados commonly run Jolly.

Uninvested in Speed, Modest
Jolteon
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
Final Speed Stat: 296
Outsped by:
-252 (244) Speed neutral base 100s (Celebi, Jirachi, Salamence, Charizard(-X,-Y, Normal), Volcarona)
-252 (or below) neutral with base 101 or more (Garchomp-Normal, Alakazam(-Mega, Normal), Espeon, Galvantula, Gengar, Greninja, Infernape, Lati@s, -Starmie, Thundurus, Talonflame)
-Base 85s to base 98 252 +Speed (Excadrill, Pinsir, Landorus-T, Lucario, Rotom-A)
Genesect 252 Speed Neutral
-Basically anything at +1 speed.

Minor Investment, Neutral
8 Speed EVs gets you past Genesect, 28 gets you past Excadrill (and Pinsir before Mega), 32 gets you past Adamant Garchomp, but that's pretty rare.

Fully Invested in Speed, Modest
Jolteon
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Note: Speed EVs past 220 do not afford any additional outspeeds of note. Tornadus is at 232.
Modest Nature
Final Speed: 359
Outsped by: Timid Greninja, Jolly Talonflame (Rare), Timid Alakazam, Timid Starmie.
Anything above 239 at +1. That's a max speed base 60, so just about anything fully invested.

EDIT: To outrun adamant Talonflame, only 224 speed EVs are required. 192 for Modest Greninja. Modest Alakazam is 176 EVs, and 136 for Modest Starmie. Note that most of these Pokémon run speed boosting natures.

To outrun JollyChomp, you need 152 EVs (neutral nature), TimidGengar 220 EVs. Ultimately, 232 EVs is about where I'd say is the point of stopping for modest for singles just to get Tornadus since that way you do beat it one-on-one. Otherwise it's decidedly shaky.
#6M3rett0Posted 2/13/2014 3:49:17 PM
You should invest enough to outrun a threat.
#7DrunkenPilot72(Topic Creator)Posted 2/13/2014 3:50:18 PM
Okay just to clarify, I know what Jolteon's strengths are which is why I'm not asking why nobody goes for a defensive Jolteon or why no one runs Pin Missile. I'm asking if anyone know what specific threats make it past max speed Modest that are stopped by max speed Timid. What exactly lives in that gap that makes gambling for a little extra power ill advised.

Obviously Choice Scarf is an issue but by whom exactly? Choice Scarf Garchomp is already faster than every non-scarfed pokemon in the game but what threshold of Scarf users is taken out by max Timid but not max Modest?
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FC: 0860-3464-0095, IGN: Y, Normal Safari: Chansey, Teddiursa, Minccino
#8DrunkenPilot72(Topic Creator)Posted 2/13/2014 3:51:36 PM
SorceressTharja posted...
Firstly, Dragon Dance sets of Dragonite and Gyarados commonly run Jolly.

Uninvested in Speed, Modest
Jolteon
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
Final Speed Stat: 296
Outsped by:
-252 (244) Speed neutral base 100s (Celebi, Jirachi, Salamence, Charizard(-X,-Y, Normal), Volcarona)
-252 (or below) neutral with base 101 or more (Garchomp-Normal, Alakazam(-Mega, Normal), Espeon, Galvantula, Gengar, Greninja, Infernape, Lati@s, -Starmie, Thundurus, Talonflame)
-Base 85s to base 98 252 +Speed (Excadrill, Pinsir, Landorus-T, Lucario, Rotom-A)
Genesect 252 Speed Neutral
-Basically anything at +1 speed.

Minor Investment, Neutral
8 Speed EVs gets you past Genesect, 28 gets you past Excadrill (and Pinsir before Mega), 32 gets you past Adamant Garchomp, but that's pretty rare.

Fully Invested in Speed, Modest
Jolteon
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
Final Speed: 359
Outsped by: Timid Greninja, Jolly Talonflame (Rare), Timid Alakazam, Timid Starmie.
Anything above 239 at +1. That's a max speed base 60, so just about anything fully invested.


Thank you, that was exactly what I was looking for.
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PSN: vyers72
FC: 0860-3464-0095, IGN: Y, Normal Safari: Chansey, Teddiursa, Minccino
#9SorceressTharjaPosted 2/13/2014 3:59:36 PM
EVs past 220 start to become obscure stuff. Tornadus requires 232. There's then another speed tier at 240 for Mega Lucario (which is less obscure) and Scolipede... not that Scolipede is at +0 very much.