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Protean Greninja counter?

#21darkshadowspawnPosted 3/31/2014 5:11:37 PM
CarbunkleFlux posted...
I would say a 75% chance to OHKO will still OHKO Greninja 75% of the time. What is there to rethink?
I mean, people gamble with Fire Blast and Hydro Pump despite the miss chance, so what's the difference here.


Seeing as that Greninja has two moves that'll OHKO in return, that 75% can come back to haunt you:

252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 378-446 (144.2 - 170.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 338-398 (129 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even putting all the Breloom's Speed EVs into Special Defense turns Extrasensory into a 2HKO...Ice Beam stays a OHKO.
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#22CarbunkleFluxPosted 3/31/2014 5:19:06 PM(edited)
darkshadowspawn posted...
Seeing as that Greninja has two moves that'll OHKO in return, that 75% can come back to haunt you:
252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 378-446 (144.2 - 170.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 338-398 (129 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even putting all the Breloom's Speed EVs into Special Defense turns Extrasensory into a 2HKO...Ice Beam stays a OHKO.


3/4 is a really good chance to OHKO him. Your argument could be applied to any of the gamble moves too. Oh, did Fire Blast miss? Guess you're screwed!

Also, if you're not running Life Orb, what else are you running? Probably Focus Sash, at which point you'll take that first hit and then just kill Greninja back next turn. It doesn't matter what Greninja does at that point!

But you could still just run Life Orb if you think that 3/4 chance is going to haunt you.
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#23Oblivion_HeroPosted 3/31/2014 5:19:23 PM
MegaHeracross could probably tank an extrasensory and kill with skill link pin missile, ignoring the sash problem.
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#24PrettyTonyTigerPosted 3/31/2014 5:23:21 PM
Oblivion_Hero posted...
MegaHeracross could probably tank an extrasensory and kill with skill link pin missile, ignoring the sash problem.


Even if it can that is unreliable with extrasensory's flinch chance
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#25J_AppleiPosted 3/31/2014 5:29:59 PM
CarbunkleFlux posted...
darkshadowspawn posted...

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 354-421 (123.7 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 272-324 (95.1 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Care to rethink?


I would say a 75% chance to OHKO will still OHKO Greninja 75% of the time. What is there to rethink?
I mean, people gamble with Fire Blast and Hydro Pump despite the miss chance, so what's the difference here.


But Breloom can't safely switch into an Ice Beam or Extrasensory. It's a check.
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#26OctazPosted 3/31/2014 5:35:11 PM
Besides Chansey (the only actual counter that's been mentioned so far), Sylveon and specially defensive Clefable are other special walls that can wall Greninja forever.

Ferrothorn can tank any Greninja unless they run HP Fire.

Most halfway-bulky waters can take Greninja without HP Grass/Grass Knot: notably, MegaGyarados and Suicune can use their bulk and resistances to set up on him.
#27CarbunkleFluxPosted 3/31/2014 5:37:25 PM
But Breloom can't safely switch into an Ice Beam or Extrasensory. It's a check.


With a Focus Sash? He can. Then you have a 3/4 chance to instantly kill Greninja. Might be a decent reason to run a focus sash, if being unable to switch on him worries you.

If we're going to be deterred by random technicalities, though, then we might as well not go with Chansey and Blissey against him for fear that the Greninja might run a physical knock off+return build :P.
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#28MrDerpFTW(Topic Creator)Posted 3/31/2014 5:41:39 PM
You guys make me feel stupid that I haven't thought of this (well, at least the basic stuff) *starts distributing gluten free cookies becuz health*
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#29Oblivion_HeroPosted 3/31/2014 6:00:44 PM
PrettyTonyTiger posted...
Oblivion_Hero posted...
MegaHeracross could probably tank an extrasensory and kill with skill link pin missile, ignoring the sash problem.


Even if it can that is unreliable with extrasensory's flinch chance


How unreliable do you consider it with a 10% chance of flinching? It's about as unlikely as getting frozen. The vast majority of the time you'll be fine.
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You can't call him out for being wrong when he never intended to be right - Stephen Colbert
"Bad Mojo" is not a diagnosis - Dr. Foreman, House, M.D.
#30davidledsmaPosted 3/31/2014 6:02:23 PM
Oblivion_Hero posted...
PrettyTonyTiger posted...
Oblivion_Hero posted...
MegaHeracross could probably tank an extrasensory and kill with skill link pin missile, ignoring the sash problem.


Even if it can that is unreliable with extrasensory's flinch chance


How unreliable do you consider it with a 10% chance of flinching? It's about as unlikely as getting frozen. The vast majority of the time you'll be fine.


Also is the whole "counter" factor, so it might die before it has the chance to attack.
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