I tried defending this item distribution, but it really is terrible.

#21Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 9:10:17 PM
The fact that that crap was even the tiniest bit viable in Wii is a disgrace.
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#22user508Posted 6/10/2014 9:11:06 PM
I personally don't get how people can even argue that Mario Kart 8's item system than Mario Kart Wii's.

I'm on board with the TC. I've 3-starred everything in MK8, slaughtered every staff time trial (man, they were easy) and consider myself a 10/10 on the nerd scale Mario Kart veteran.

And I can comfortably say that the item system in this game is bad to the point of hilarity.
#23OverclockdPosted 6/10/2014 9:13:14 PM
Chagen46 posted...
The fact that that crap was even the tiniest bit viable in Wii is a disgrace.


I find the fact that first place barely has a reason to drop a shell/banana a disgrace. First place being decided at 15 seconds is a disgrace. Every item system has downsides.
#24Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 9:13:32 PM
Truly, this game's system is superior to 80 blue shells every race and scrubs winning because they got a lightning and then a star and then a bullet bill while those of us with skill get bowled over by some noob with gdlk luck

You can't be this much of a Wii fanboy.
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#25super_luigi16(Moderator)Posted 6/10/2014 9:14:45 PM
Chagen46 posted...
Uh, letting you see everyone's items is only a good thing--now you can actually PLAN instead of wondering "gee I sure hope that guy in front of me doesn't have a shell right now". Now you can see that shell and know instantly "alright gotta dodge them". Or you're behind someone else, they grab an item and it's a Super Horn, you know that you gotta give them a wide berth. They have the upper hand and now control the field, but they'll also be itching to shoot it off. You can either risk trying to boost past them if you got a mushroom or the track is wide enough, but if you have a shell you can also weigh shooting it off so they waste the horn.

In Wii if the horn existed you'd mushroom past them and get hit with the horn out of nowhere because lolcan'tseeanyoneelse'sitems


So having a set of input:output scenarios is better? It doesn't matter if you know the person behind you has a red in Mario Kart 8 because there's absolutely nothing you can do about it if you have a coin or no item at all; furthermore, the person holding the red has no compulsion to hold the red if he or she can just look down and see that the person behind him or her has no reds of his or her own. In Mario Kart Wii, there was an item skill curve because you could actually learn and practice item techniques; in Mario Kart 8, no such item skill curve exists because everyone can add 1+1. You see, you just evaluated all possible reactions to someone having a Super Horn in one paragraph... Mario Kart Wii requires more skill because you need to grapple with more uncertainty in that you do not know other racers' items. What if the other person has a Mushroom? Or a red? Or a green? Or a banana? You don't know, and that means you need to actually think about using your item instead of spamming your item the second you get it! Mario Kart 8 is clear-cut--MKW is ambiguous and actually requires skill.

Chagen46 posted...
No sandbagging is a terrible tactic completely antithetical to the idea of beating the race as fast as possible. The fact that Wii not merely allowed but rewarded is proof of how broken the game was. 8 doesn't punish you for being good and getting past everyone else--nay, it rewards you for being better. Wii does not, hence why sandbagging exists.


But it can be faster to sandbag than simply to frontrun. If the top four racers are neck and neck and the guy or gal in first drops back to fourth, gets triple shrooms, and ends up getting first by a wider margin than his previous lead, how can you possibly argue that he or she did not "[beat] the race as fast as possible." He or she did. Arguing that it's antithetical to "racing" is simply a scrub reaction to a tactic discovered and used by those with more skill--it's like arguing against wavedashing in Melee.

MK8 is treading ever-so-closely to MK7's completely broken item system. If items are irrelevant, then what's the point of having them? If items are meant to be relied upon for a race, then what's the point of having them? You might as well play with items off if you don't change up your tactics at all when items are present and because items require no skill. If items in MK8 simply put you at the mercy of the roulette, then it's hard to say that they are "more balanced" or that the item distribution is "good." It discourages actual item skill and simply caters to those who know what the items do.
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Luigi > Mario
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#26Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 9:15:59 PM
Overclockd posted...

I find the fact that first place barely has a reason to drop a shell/banana a disgrace. First place being decided at 15 seconds is a disgrace. Every item system has downsides.


First place shouldn't be about dropping bananas or shells. You should be playing 100% defensively once you're in the lead. Once I get a shell or banana in this game I'm hoarding that thing for the whole race if I have to. In first you should be simply focusing on keeping 10 coins, getting your lines perfect, and nailing all the boosts/tricks. It's all about keeping the lead, not fighting others. Offensive play is for when you need to GAIN places, not keep them.
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Baby Rosalina and Baby Daisy fanboy for life. Respect our adorable princesses!
#27Puppy_ChowPosted 6/10/2014 9:18:25 PM
To win in MK Wii consistently you had to have amazing driving skills coupled with amazing item skills.

To win in MK 8 item skills are negligible compared to Wii, while having great driving skills is still important, but I would argue easier to master

MK 8 is still the better game but not for those reasons.
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#28user508Posted 6/10/2014 9:18:39 PM
Chagen46 posted...
Overclockd posted...

I find the fact that first place barely has a reason to drop a shell/banana a disgrace. First place being decided at 15 seconds is a disgrace. Every item system has downsides.


First place shouldn't be about dropping bananas or shells. You should be playing 100% defensively once you're in the lead. Once I get a shell or banana in this game I'm hoarding that thing for the whole race if I have to. In first you should be simply focusing on keeping 10 coins, getting your lines perfect, and nailing all the boosts/tricks. It's all about keeping the lead, not fighting others. Offensive play is for when you need to GAIN places, not keep them.


While I agree with you about your points regarding being in first place... it's the journey to first that's the problem, not being in first itself.

The main argument is that for the people back in the "pack", it's nearly impossible to get to the front. You need the miracle... of a decent item system.

Just because you got hit by one of eleven other players in the outrageously frantic first 10 second of a race does not mean you raced bad. A good item system needs to be place to make up for the already insane randomness that is Mario Kart. Skill still comes into play with items.
#29super_luigi16(Moderator)Posted 6/10/2014 9:20:07 PM
Chagen46 posted...
I wont deny that using items is a skill, but in Wii you could just spam whatever you got and inevitably climb up several places. The blue punished the leader for being good, lightning screwed everyone over royally...the game is just a big item-fest. You just have to pray that you get lucky when you hit an item box and even then, if you're high up you're gonna be annihilated by some noob with a bullet bill/star/lightning/blueshell/etc so what the hell's the point of even doing anything anyway?


If you actually read the topic I linked to, you would read that MKW didn't 'royally screw over everyone with shocks' or that the 'blue punished the leader for being good.' No, blue shells punished the leader for getting into first and not having a plan when a blue shell inevitably came. No, shocks royally screwed over everyone who wasn't prepared for it either by shockdodging or by knowing that it likely wouldn't screw over his or her race.

And getting annihilated by some noob with a star in the back of the pack is more my fault because I couldn't make do with my decent item (i.e., triple shrooms). MK8 doesn't even give you a choice because some noob could get a star and I can very likely get a single green. There is no comparison between a green and triple shrooms--Mario Kart 8 is far more luck-dependent.
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#30Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 9:24:21 PM(edited)
super_luigi16 posted...

So having a set of input:output scenarios is better? It doesn't matter if you know the person behind you has a red in Mario Kart 8 because there's absolutely nothing you can do about it if you have a coin or no item at all; furthermore, the person holding the red has no compulsion to hold the red if he or she can just look down and see that the person behind him or her has no reds of his or her own. In Mario Kart Wii, there was an item skill curve because you could actually learn and practice item techniques; in Mario Kart 8, no such item skill curve exists because everyone can add 1+1. You see, you just evaluated all possible reactions to someone having a Super Horn in one paragraph... Mario Kart Wii requires more skill because you need to grapple with more uncertainty in that you do not know other racers' items. What if the other person has a Mushroom? Or a red? Or a green? Or a banana? You don't know, and that means you need to actually think about using your item instead of spamming your item the second you get it! Mario Kart 8 is clear-cut--MKW is ambiguous and actually requires skill.


What.

You're basically saying "it's more fun when you're in the dark".

Well as a player of fighting games let me tell you that that is NOT fun or more challenging. In FG's all moves by definition are telegraphed yet there's still great skill in reacting to them. You can see everything your opponent is doing (and you often have less than 10 frames to react) yet no one says they're not skill-based games.




But it can be faster to sandbag than simply to frontrun. If the top four racers are neck and neck and the guy or gal in first drops back to fourth, gets triple shrooms, and ends up getting first by a wider margin than his previous lead, how can you possibly argue that he or she did not "[beat] the race as fast as possible." He or she did. Arguing that it's antithetical to "racing" is simply a scrub reaction to a tactic discovered and used by those with more skill--it's like arguing against wavedashing in Melee.


Look, 8 is better because you're not slamming the brakes every item box to scrub up a better item. I'm no scrub, I just view having to slow down just to scrub up some better items to be a pathetic and laughable idea of a tactic. Oh it may work, but it certainly does not make the game better for it.

I won't deny that sandbagging works in Wii. I simply personally do not like the concept behind the tactic.

Wavedashing added tons of depth to Melee. What does sandbagging add? Slowing down in race to scrub up better items. Wow.


MK8 is treading ever-so-closely to MK7's completely broken item system. If items are irrelevant, then what's the point of having them? If items are meant to be relied upon for a race, then what's the point of having them? You might as well play with items off if you don't change up your tactics at all when items are present and because items require no skill. If items in MK8 simply put you at the mercy of the roulette, then it's hard to say that they are "more balanced" or that the item distribution is "good." It discourages actual item skill and simply caters to those who know what the items do.


Because items aren't irrelevant? You can't simply spam items all day long and expect to win.

Also no-item racing is a blast. You should try some Mushroom-only races one day...or will you not because you have to rely on Wii's broken item system to win?
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Baby Rosalina and Baby Daisy fanboy for life. Respect our adorable princesses!