I tried defending this item distribution, but it really is terrible.

#31AROCK86(Topic Creator)Posted 6/10/2014 8:27:23 PM
I was expecting to get flamed when I made this thread. Was pleasantly surprised to see some people are backing me up on this.

I understand some people might like it better this way. The randomness can be fun when you pull lightning in 4th followed by triple mushrooms to take the lead (I've done this already).

The "get gud" argument cracks me up. I admit, I still have a lot to learn about my lines in MK8, but I am no noob. I know the shortcuts and have watched most of the world record lines.

I could not even benefit from my racing skills tonight because there were multiple times I was at the mercy of the lucky items people were getting around me. One hit in this game can end your entire race because you simply cannot count on good enough items to have a chance of catching up. You might pull a golden mushroom in 4th, or you might pull a blooper in last. You cannot plan for anything.

Several races tonight I dropped many positions simply because I got a coin in 3rd or 4th place. I battled the whole race with perfect lines, but it simply did not matter. And once I got hit, I knew I would have to wait until the next race to try to place well because I had zero chance of recovering.

Sandbagging is removed from this game. Trapping is nearly removed, because everyone is fearful of the inevitable coin-red shell combo.

Don't get me wrong. It's still a fun game and has a lot of things I enjoy, but I think it would be so much better if they at least made the items a little bit more predicable.
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#32Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 8:28:50 PM(edited)
super_luigi16 posted...

If you actually read the topic I linked to, you would read that MKW didn't 'royally screw over everyone with shocks' or that the 'blue punished the leader for being good.' No, blue shells punished the leader for getting into first and not having a plan when a blue shell inevitably came. No, shocks royally screwed over everyone who wasn't prepared for it either by shockdodging or by knowing that it likely wouldn't screw over his or her race.


What plan? You can't plan when they're almost impossible to dodge and are ubiquitous. Blue shells come and sweep you out of your place--they're like a hurricane: they'll blast you to pieces regardless of what you do. Except the hurricane in Wii comes every race.

Lightning is much the same way, you can't dodge it, you can only just accept that it will screw you. At least in 8 you know when someone's got a lightning so you can either prepare yourself for getting shocked, or possibly pull off a defensive move like using a star.
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#33OverclockdPosted 6/10/2014 8:33:52 PM
Chagen46 posted...
Overclockd posted...

I find the fact that first place barely has a reason to drop a shell/banana a disgrace. First place being decided at 15 seconds is a disgrace. Every item system has downsides.


First place shouldn't be about dropping bananas or shells. You should be playing 100% defensively once you're in the lead. Once I get a shell or banana in this game I'm hoarding that thing for the whole race if I have to. In first you should be simply focusing on keeping 10 coins, getting your lines perfect, and nailing all the boosts/tricks. It's all about keeping the lead, not fighting others. Offensive play is for when you need to GAIN places, not keep them.


I fully understand and agree with your philosophy of how to keep the lead. My issue is that in no way should game mechanics encourage and reward such a passive style. Secondly, good lines and coins apply to all positions in the race. It doesn't take more skill to do those in the lead because there is limited threat. In fact, lower places are the ones that must drive most skillfully. 1st 2nd and 3rd get rewarded more for crappier racing simply because they are out of the line of fire. A good item system is meant to neutralize the high placement bias.
#34Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 8:40:18 PM(edited)
Overclockd posted...


I fully understand and agree with your philosophy of how to keep the lead. My issue is that in no way should game mechanics encourage and reward such a passive style. Secondly, good lines and coins apply to all positions in the race. It doesn't take more skill to do those in the lead because there is limited threat. In fact, lower places are the ones that must drive most skillfully. 1st 2nd and 3rd get rewarded more for crappier racing simply because they are out of the line of fire. A good item system is meant to neutralize the high placement bias.


I don't know why you're blaming the game for such a passive style. One could say Wii was the same--once you're in first, you are not advantaged by attacking anyone ahead of you, so you might as well play defensive. Difference is in Wii you're just counting down till you get blue shelled. You're not really "winning" in first on Wii, you're just racing for the privilege of being blue shell'ed to death.

Second, you can't just roll your face on the controller in first in this game and expect to win. There will always be second and third behind you itching to attack, and if you haven't gotten far enough away there will be other players. If you get hit in first it's REALLY easy to get chained back to 7th, I know because it's happened to me all the time before. You need to always have protection and focus on running away as fast as possible because the more you stay in the radius in which second can shell you and pass you, the more risks you're taking.

Personally when you manage to get that really big lead where nothing can stop you feels really satisfying in this game because you have to work really hard to do it.
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#35super_luigi16(Moderator)Posted 6/10/2014 8:42:41 PM
Chagen46 posted...
What.

You're basically saying "it's more fun when you're in the dark".

Well as a player of fighting games let me tell you that that is NOT fun or more challenging. In FG's all moves by definition are telegraphed yet there's still great skill in reacting to them. You can see everything your opponent is doing (and you often have less than 10 frames to react) yet no one says they're not skill-based games.


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's more fun to have some wiggle room and to actually have to make a strategic decision about your items than to sit there and simply absorb information that is spoonfed to you and choose the correct reaction. That's no fun. I don't want everyone to have exactly the same item skill level because there is no skill curve; I'd rather be rewarded for knowing how the items work and performing better because of that knowledge. Instead, I'm punished by MK8's nasty item roulette.

I'm not immediately familiar with FG, but your comparison is not exactly analagous. You see, there is no skill in knowing that my opponent is going to screw me over. There is no skill in that my coin automatically loses out to the guy with reds behind me. There is no skill in that my triple reds automatically beat the guy in front of me with a single green. Reacting in 10 frames is one thing; reading a bunch of items on the item spy and coming up with a reaction within the next fifteen seconds (or whenever the next item blocks are) is not skill-based.

Chagen46 posted...
Look, 8 is better because you're not slamming the brakes every item box to scrub up a better item. I'm no scrub, I just view having to slow down just to scrub up some better items to be a pathetic and laughable idea of a tactic. Oh it may work, but it certainly does not make the game better for it.

I won't deny that sandbagging works in Wii. I simply personally do not like the concept behind the tactic.

Wavedashing added tons of depth to Melee. What does sandbagging add? Slowing down in race to scrub up better items. Wow.


If your grievance against sandbagging is wholly personal and fully discounts the strategic depth of the tactic, then there is no further discussion on this point. Your argument against it is a matter of opinion--my argument for it is a matter of the fact that it adds strategic depth. Remember, sandbagging does not work every time, and it often requires skill in of itself to execute the tactic correctly. It does add depth. You can choose not to sandbag and potentially do just fine. You can also choose to sandbag and get royally screwed over. The reality is that having sandbagging adds more strategy to a game.

Chagen46 posted...
Because items aren't irrelevant? You can't simply spam items all day long and expect to win.

Also no-item racing is a blast. You should try some Mushroom-only races one day...or will you not because you have to rely on Wii's broken item system to win?


I don't "rely" on Mario Kart Wii's "broken item system," or whatever you want to call it. I use it to my advantage so that I have a better chance of winning. Ignoring item strategy in Mario Kart Wii is blatantly, well, ignorant, so I use my item skills to perform better. What's wrong with that? By the way, you can't spam all items in MKW all day and expect to win either. I don't know why you would make that claim because it's simply not true. The game doesn't work like that. There's a reason Mini's sticky exists.

I do race with no items occasionally, but, when I do, I realize that I'm peeling away a layer of item strategy and stripping the game down to who has the best lines.
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#36A_MAZ_INGPosted 6/10/2014 8:45:55 PM
super_luigi16 posted...
Chagen46 posted...
I wont deny that using items is a skill, but in Wii you could just spam whatever you got and inevitably climb up several places. The blue punished the leader for being good, lightning screwed everyone over royally...the game is just a big item-fest. You just have to pray that you get lucky when you hit an item box and even then, if you're high up you're gonna be annihilated by some noob with a bullet bill/star/lightning/blueshell/etc so what the hell's the point of even doing anything anyway?


If you actually read the topic I linked to, you would read that MKW didn't 'royally screw over everyone with shocks' or that the 'blue punished the leader for being good.' No, blue shells punished the leader for getting into first and not having a plan when a blue shell inevitably came. No, shocks royally screwed over everyone who wasn't prepared for it either by shockdodging or by knowing that it likely wouldn't screw over his or her race.

And getting annihilated by some noob with a star in the back of the pack is more my fault because I couldn't make do with my decent item (i.e., triple shrooms). MK8 doesn't even give you a choice because some noob could get a star and I can very likely get a single green. There is no comparison between a green and triple shrooms--Mario Kart 8 is far more luck-dependent.


Couldn't agree with the bolted anymore. It's not an issue every race (least not for me), but I'd say about once every 3 races on 150cc, I'll have a moment on the last lap when I'm in like 1st and get caught without a shell/banana for defense, because it was used earlier, and get popped from behind by a shell.
Than it's like "Ok cool, just one hi-" BAM! Another shell, then two seconds later a Bob-omb! Now I'm in like 4th or 5th place with the guy who originally passed me having like an 8 second lead and no way for me to catch up considering how little track left, especially when their aren't any or many item boxes left.
#37super_luigi16(Moderator)Posted 6/10/2014 8:48:55 PM
Chagen46 posted...
What plan? You can't plan when they're almost impossible to dodge and are ubiquitous. Blue shells come and sweep you out of your place--they're like a hurricane: they'll blast you to pieces regardless of what you do. Except the hurricane in Wii comes every race.


Whenever you take first place in Mario Kart, you should have a plan for what your recourse will be if and when you get blued, whether it be stopping to get others in the blast, saving a shroom for the blue, or thinking that your lead will be enough to survive the blue. If you don't have a plan, you shouldn't blame the game for thwarting the cushiest position in the game.

Chagen46 posted...
Lightning is much the same way, you can't dodge it, you can only just accept that it will screw you. At least in 8 you know when someone's got a lightning so you can either prepare yourself for getting shocked, or possibly pull off a defensive move like using a star.


You can dodge lightning, though. Please read the part in the sticky I linked to in my first post regarding shockdodges.

Chagen46 posted...
I don't know why you're blaming the game for such a passive style. One could say Wii was the same--once you're in first, you are not advantaged by attacking anyone ahead of you, so you might as well play defensive. Difference is in Wii you're just counting down till you get blue shelled. You're not really "winning" in first on Wii, you're just racing for the privilege of being blue shell'ed to death.


No, but in MKW, you could more aptly trap others because you could wall red shells. This means that you could slow other racers down, and, in most cases, that would be the deciding factor whether your lead will hold up after a blue shell. When everyone's lines are good, trapping is going to give first place the advantage. In MK8, first place can't trap because he or she will get pelted by reds.
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#38Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 8:49:13 PM
A_MAZ_ING posted...


Couldn't agree with the bolted anymore. It's not an issue every race (least not for me), but I'd say about once every 3 races on 150cc, I'll have a moment on the last lap when I'm in like 1st and get caught without a shell/banana for defense, because it was used earlier, and get popped from behind by a shell.
Than it's like "Ok cool, just one hi-" BAM! Another shell, then two seconds later a Bob-omb! Now I'm in like 4th or 5th place with the guy who originally passed me having like an 8 second lead and no way for me to catch up considering how little track left, especially when their aren't any or many item boxes left.


Dude that happens in every goddamn Mario Kart in existence. Wii, N64, DD, DS, 7...getting chained to death by items is so common I'm amazed you're complaining about it.
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#39super_luigi16(Moderator)Posted 6/10/2014 8:50:12 PM
Chagen46 posted...
Second, you can't just roll your face on the controller in first in this game and expect to win. There will always be second and third behind you itching to attack, and if you haven't gotten far enough away there will be other players. If you get hit in first it's REALLY easy to get chained back to 7th, I know because it's happened to me all the time before. You need to always have protection and focus on running away as fast as possible because the more you stay in the radius in which second can shell you and pass you, the more risks you're taking.


I think this comment is appropriate for the bolded statement.

Chagen46 posted...
That's a gigantic exaggeration.

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#40Chagen46Posted 6/10/2014 8:53:14 PM
super_luigi16 posted...
Chagen46 posted...
What plan? You can't plan when they're almost impossible to dodge and are ubiquitous. Blue shells come and sweep you out of your place--they're like a hurricane: they'll blast you to pieces regardless of what you do. Except the hurricane in Wii comes every race.


Whenever you take first place in Mario Kart, you should have a plan for what your recourse will be if and when you get blued, whether it be stopping to get others in the blast, saving a shroom for the blue, or thinking that your lead will be enough to survive the blue. If you don't have a plan, you shouldn't blame the game for thwarting the cushiest position in the game.



See, this is the problem with the Wii item system. First place shouldn't be thwarted. It should be the most well-protected position in the game. You're not in the 4-10 maelstrom of items being flung around, you've raced well, and now are in the lead. It should be the most well protected position. You earned it. This is why I hate the Wii Blue Shell. It punishes you for being in first place. You're already being attacked by second and third, why should the blue come to screw you over?

First place is the cushiest place on the leaderboard? Good. It should be. Second and third should have to work to get there. But in Wii they don't.
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Baby Rosalina and Baby Daisy fanboy for life. Respect our adorable princesses!