what is so special about WW Ganondorf?

#1Big_IsaacPosted 8/12/2013 10:15:48 AM
in every "best villain" discussion about this series I've seen, WW Ganondorf is brought up constantly as the best, and quite frankly I don't understand why. can someone enlighten me?
just what exactly is so special about this incarnation of him?

I haven't played the game myself yet (waiting for this HP version :P), but I've seen multiple let's plays of it. to me, he seems exactly like every other incarnation of him. he has a bit more screen time, which I appreciate, but his character itself is still as dull and simplistic as ever.

sooooooo what am I missing?
how is he regarded to be a better villain than, say, Zant in TP or Vaati in MC?
---
Waiting for golden Sun 3DS
2 things are infinite: The Universe and human stupidity. I'm not sure about the Universe, though -Albert Einstein
#2Hirokey123Posted 8/12/2013 10:54:44 AM(edited)
He actually has character and seems like a person rather than a monster, it's the most human ganondorf has ever sounded.

He talks about how he lived in a land where the wind only brought death, burning desert where every day was a struggle to survive. When he looked over to Hyrule though he saw the winds were different in that land, they brought life to a land plentiful in pleasures paradise. He coveted that wind and it's for that reason that particular Ganondorf sought to take Hyrule.

Since he's the same Ganondorf from OoT that gained the triforce of power and ruled Hryule for 7 years he also gets all of that character as well, which is to say someone who gained all they wanted but only craved more. Which adds into his character because by the time of WW he pretty much had done a bit of soul searching and discovered his desire was not power it was to rule Hyrule that land he had envied.

Which then creates an interesting role reversal because in the end WW Ganondorf was only trying to revive hyrule, revive it under his rule yes but he wanted Hyrule back. You're the opposite you want to protect the land above and in the end you're actions are ultimately responsible for destroying Hyrule. Adding in a foil in the form of the king of hyrule also helps this Ganondorf. Because the King was very much like Ganondorf and represents the other path that could be taken, to destroy Hyrule of the past and let the world above finally move forward.

Ganondorf pretty much has a bigger deeper role here than any other game which ties into the fact WW had a much bigger moral to it. There was the sea land of the present and the submerged kingdom of the past, as long as they both existed neither could really truly exist. Ganondorf in this case being used as the symbol of the shadowed past that doesn't want to vanish and Link being the new wind that is the symbol of the new life.


Basically this is the only game in which Ganondorf was really used to his fullest as a character, given some backstory, had an actual foil, has a legit motive other than the generic power lust, and is used as a symbol for the deeper more mature themes of the game.
---
I've got a quote that embodies you perfectly, but it's seventy-three posts long, has a few massive flowcharts, and lots of Xion-KMA to Me
#3DynamicJumpIuffPosted 8/12/2013 11:05:29 AM
There's a nice little touch that I enjoyed during the final fight... He sheaths his sword and knocks Zelda down instead of killing her with said sword.

Other than that, I think post 2 got it right.
---
The official Lilim of the Shin Megami Tensei IV board
"I thank you for arousing me" - Beruga, Terranigma
#4TaiphlosionPosted 8/12/2013 11:43:20 AM
He has character and reasons to do what he's doing. Unlike other ganon/dorfs he wants to do something that can be considered noble, bringing hyrule back.
---
"I've got nothing to give, got no reason to live. But I will fight to survive, I've got nothing to hide, wish I wasn't so shy"
#5Big_Isaac(Topic Creator)Posted 8/12/2013 11:56:16 AM
if you want to give WW Ganondorf points for stuff that happened in OoT, then shouldn't the same thing apply to TP Ganondorf as well?
all 3 are the same exact person. TP Ganondorf invaded Hyrule with the same motivation as WW Ganondorf. the only difference is the outcome.

as far as all that other stuff goes, yeah it's a nice read and all, but I don't see how that adds very much to his character.
this stuff about Link and Ganondorf reversing roles is a neat quirk of the story, but once again it has little to do with Ganondorf's personality. if anything, it has more to do with Link's role
you know, how until now Link worked to save hyrule, but this time his actions ultimately destroy it. Ganondorf on the other hand still does much of the same as ever, since he still wants to conquer hyrule.

so, form what I can tell, the main addition that WW makes to Ganondorf's character is that piece of backstory. I definitely appreciate that, but even that I don't think has been handled all that well.
It seems like they want to make Ganondorf out to be a tragic figure, which to me rings a bit weird considering what he does in OoT. WW says that he invaded Hyrule because it promised life and prosperity, but what does he do when he gets there? he turns the castle surrounded by lush green into a doom fortress that's floating above a pool of lava. and the life-filled castle town, he turns into a ruin full of zombies.
he takes 2 life-filled areas of hyrule and perverts them into places that are less inviting than the desert he wanted to get away from so badly.

I suppose this is what happens when you try to retroactively add depth and likability to a character like this. it's why I've always thought that it would be much better to focus on one-shot characters rather than the main trio of the series
---
Waiting for golden Sun 3DS
2 things are infinite: The Universe and human stupidity. I'm not sure about the Universe, though -Albert Einstein
#6Hirokey123Posted 8/12/2013 12:23:48 PM
Big_Isaac posted...
if you want to give WW Ganondorf points for stuff that happened in OoT, then shouldn't the same thing apply to TP Ganondorf as well?

Nope because OoT never happened for TP Ganondorf, Link and Zelda found a way to beat him as children. So he never gained the triforce of power, he never took over hyrule, he never went through becoming a living monster. None of that happened to him until TP where he was part of a failed execution that just made him bitter and in trying to take revenge for the execution he was flat out murdered. This denied that version of him any chance to grow like his much much much older WW counterpart did.

all 3 are the same exact person. TP Ganondorf invaded Hyrule with the same motivation as WW Ganondorf. the only difference is the outcome.

Not exactly because during the time of OoT he was concerned only with power, he was drawn to that land to steal its sacred power. While in TP he was consumed both with a lust for power and was doing everything he was because he was spiteful at the failed execution attempt. In otherwords TP doesn't have remotely as much development as WW Ganondorf.

as far as all that other stuff goes, yeah it's a nice read and all, but I don't see how that adds very much to his character.

It's an entirely new role for him one that he's never had in any other game, he's basically more of a twisted hero in WW more so than a villain. I don't understand how you couldn't see how that adds to his character. I mean it's basically the only game where he comes off as an actual King rather than a usurper tyrant. Which is why the actual King of Hyrule makes such a good foil for him.

so, form what I can tell, the main addition that WW makes to Ganondorf's character is that piece of backstory. I definitely appreciate that, but even that I don't think has been handled all that well.

It seems like they want to make Ganondorf out to be a tragic figure, which to me rings a bit weird considering what he does in OoT. WW says that he invaded Hyrule because it promised life and prosperity, but what does he do when he gets there? he turns the castle surrounded by lush green into a doom fortress that's floating above a pool of lava. and the life-filled castle town, he turns into a ruin full of zombies.
he takes 2 life-filled areas of hyrule and perverts them into places that are less inviting than the desert he wanted to get away from so badly.


Again that's during the time when he was consumed with wanting power. During OoT that's all he cared about and no matter how much power he had gained he still kept wanting more. Which is why it's not till after everything happened that he came to understand his true desire. He lost everything, he was sealed away and had to deal with that, and he escaped his seal and was consumed with vengence. By trying to take vengeance he truly did kill Hyrule and when he finally had realized what he had done and his true desire it was to late, Hyrule was just a silent sleeping corpse. Which leads to his plan in WW to obtain the triforce so he can awaken and restore Hyrule.


This is also fittingly the only game Ganondorf doesn't turn into a monster or start out as a monster.
---
I've got a quote that embodies you perfectly, but it's seventy-three posts long, has a few massive flowcharts, and lots of Xion-KMA to Me
#7Big_Isaac(Topic Creator)Posted 8/12/2013 1:29:26 PM
Hirokey123 posted...
Nope because OoT never happened for TP Ganondorf, Link and Zelda found a way to beat him as children. So he never gained the triforce of power, he never took over hyrule, he never went through becoming a living monster. None of that happened to him until TP where he was part of a failed execution that just made him bitter and in trying to take revenge for the execution he was flat out murdered. This denied that version of him any chance to grow like his much much much older WW counterpart did.

he has the same backstory as WW Ganondorf since until the part in OoT where Link was supposed to open the door of time, both were the same person. on TP's side of things, Link never opened the door of time, so the sages eventually ran him down and captured him. on WW's side of things, Link did open the door and the rest of OoT took place.
the way TP portrays ganondorf, he very much is a monster already, long before he returned from the twilight realm.
he still has that gaping, glowing wound from the execution, he has that big giant head form he never showed before and his look in general is a lot more demonic than in any of the other games (completely black skin, sharp fang-like teeth and all that)

Not exactly because during the time of OoT he was concerned only with power, he was drawn to that land to steal its sacred power. While in TP he was consumed both with a lust for power and was doing everything he was because he was spiteful at the failed execution attempt. In otherwords TP doesn't have remotely as much development as WW Ganondorf.

as I've said, the only real difference between the two is the outcome of their initial raid.
WW was successful, so he spent more time in hyrule, while TP was unsuccessful, so he spent that same time in the twilight realm instead.
you could even make the argument that TP had to have had more time with the ToP, since his mastery of it seems to be greater.

also, TP Ganondorf does not seem to care at all about gaining the other 2 fragments of the triforce, even though that was his main goal on the other side of the timeline. this means he did indeed develop and change during his time in the twilight realm.
he is still fond of power, since he makes fun of the weakness of the twili, but he seems to be more than content with the amount of power he already has thanks to the ToP and twilight magic.

he's basically more of a twisted hero in WW more so than a villain

how exactly does it make him a "twisted hero" that he wants to revive Hyrule? he doesn't want to restore it because it's the right thing to do. he wants to do it because he wants to rule over it ("give Hyrule to me!!!"). the old hyrule was simply a much more attractive realm to rule over than the bunch of scattered mountain tops of the great sea.

you can interpret and conjecture a lot more into it, and I suppose that is a mark of quality in its own right, but at the end of the day they don't actually do anything to that effect in the game.
it's not like you see this development happen in WW; it takes place in between the games. he is a different person than he was in OoT, but all that effectively changes is his goal. instead of ultimate power, he now wants to rule over hyrule. the person he is in WW is still just as flat and shallow as he was in OoT, just from a slightly different angle.
the question is, does the game itself provide a reason for why he changed his mind, or are you purposely interpreting your reason into it? this distinction is important, since you can interpret greater meaning into almost anything if you try hard enough.
---
Waiting for golden Sun 3DS
2 things are infinite: The Universe and human stupidity. I'm not sure about the Universe, though -Albert Einstein
#8surferguy7Posted 8/12/2013 3:45:57 PM
So did you actually come here looking for info on WW Ganondorf? Or did you simply want to spark some silly discussion about your bad opinion?
---
This is the internet, all opinions are considered invalid.
#9mjc0961Posted 8/12/2013 5:32:53 PM
Big_Isaac posted...
if you want to give WW Ganondorf points for stuff that happened in OoT, then shouldn't the same thing apply to TP Ganondorf as well?


No, because that version of Ganondorf never ruled Hyrule.
---
sirtonne posted...
This topic is so stupid I had to slap my wife.
#10mjc0961Posted 8/12/2013 5:49:20 PM
Hirokey123 posted...
as far as all that other stuff goes, yeah it's a nice read and all, but I don't see how that adds very much to his character.

It's an entirely new role for him one that he's never had in any other game, he's basically more of a twisted hero in WW more so than a villain. I don't understand how you couldn't see how that adds to his character. I mean it's basically the only game where he comes off as an actual King rather than a usurper tyrant. Which is why the actual King of Hyrule makes such a good foil for him.


This is also fittingly the only game Ganondorf doesn't turn into a monster or start out as a monster.


Yeah, now you're talking just as much nonsense as TC. First off, Ganondorf never turns into a monster? He turns into 3 in this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh2RWmZeDUk

Secondly, Ganondorf is no hero at all in WW. He wants to bring Hyrule back so he can continue his oppressive rule as the usurper tyrant he was in OoT and he tried to be again in the events between games. The desire to bring back Hyrule doesn't make him any kind of hero at all when the reason why he wants to bring it back is so he can keep being an evil tyrant. The King of Hyrule makes a good foil for him because he wants to bring back Hyrule for the right reasons rather than Ganondorf's evil reasons, and because he ultimately sacrifices his kingdom to finally be rid of Ganondorf and to let the world above the sea flourish rather than let Hyrule fall into the hands of Ganondorf again.

Yeah, Ganondorf has some awesome moments in this game (his speech about the winds, that laugh after the King makes his wish), but you're giving him way too much credit if you think he's any kind of hero. He's not. He's still completely the villain and that's not really open to interpretation unless you completely skew the plot of the game. Saving Hyrule isn't meant to be the noble endeavor of this game and Ganondorf trying to revive Hyrule doesn't make him a hero by any means. Maybe pay attention to the things the King has to say during those final scenes, you might learn something.

---
sirtonne posted...
This topic is so stupid I had to slap my wife.