So I def want to see a vampire, dark knight, and Ninja on my final team

#11Soryuju32Posted 8/20/2014 9:05:16 PM
Why not give us a preliminary team build that you have in mind, and we can help improve it? Whether or not you feel that copying someone else's team would detract from your enjoyment of the game, no one's listed support ability sets or equipment for you, so you're not guaranteed to get the same results that they did. If you put up your own set, even if it's inspired by one of the ones here, you can get additional insight into what makes a strong party and have a better understanding of how to get the best results from your team composition.

Also, how much interest do you have in fighting the high level Nemeses? The majority of team builds will get you through the main game if they're built and played decently, but the toughest Nemeses are on another level, and some are designed to give high-damage classes a hard time (specifically, Ninjas and Rage-spamming Dark Knights). There are still a wide spectrum of teams that are capable of beating these Nemeses without resorting to cheese tactics, but you have to be pickier about how you build your team if you want to have a decent chance of winning. The specifics of how to build your team depend on whether or not you plan on fighting these Nemeses, and whether or not you're willing to make changes to your party setup if it should prove necessary.
#12alt_realityPosted 8/21/2014 4:45:47 AM
Natwaf_akidna posted...
Well, if that Vampire/Spiritmaster is the build I think it is, then both it and the DK/Merchant are the BP batteries. Vampire spams White Wind until it gets Rejuvenation (which can increase everybody's BP by 2), then spams White Wind again to build up Special charges.

And the Merchant can toss BP Drinks to whoever needs it.

Or maybe he doesn't have a BP battery.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong alt, but isn't Energy Burst stronger than Crescent Moon for multi-target purposes? Or is there another reason to use Valkyrie?


Vampire/Spiritmaster will HELP but it won't replace a BP battery entirely since Moderation and Rejuvenation alone cannot fuel a party. Spiritmaster/Performer on the other hand can function as a BP battery provided Low Leverage is in effect at all times (which... let's be honest; it should be). It works as a more BP-oriented version of Vampire/Spiritmaster and can still spam Rejuvenation with dual staves (I used it just fine with dual shields before even piecing together that recovering BP counted as a heal for Rejuvenation). You do lose out on the constant full HP via White Wind but I never found the need for that level of healing/there are other healers who can do just as well (in my case, Salve-Maker).

BP Drinks are very cumbersome to use... they only target one party member and they use up a lot of cash. Granted, you can get nearly infinite cash with an Elixir Mammon or the Big Pharma Trick but... they still only target one party member.

I have the Valkyrie there for a) Spirit Barrier and b) I'm stubborn; Conjurer or Merchant may actually be more effective (though the party setup I provided already had a Merchant in it so I didn't see the need to double up).

If I REALLY wanted to go optimal, I think the Merchant would be bumped over to the DK and Salve-Maker would be paired with White Mage and be decked out into a true healer build instead of just chucking items but... the setup I provided still worked for everything in the main game. (Then again, the Monk/DK is needed for 9999 defense enemies so I take that back...)
---
"Are you one of those men who likes...other boys?" - Estelle Bright, Trails in the Sky
#13Soryuju32Posted 8/21/2014 8:23:48 AM
alt_reality posted...

Vampire/Spiritmaster will HELP but it won't replace a BP battery entirely since Moderation and Rejuvenation alone cannot fuel a party. Spiritmaster/Performer on the other hand can function as a BP battery provided Low Leverage is in effect at all times (which... let's be honest; it should be). It works as a more BP-oriented version of Vampire/Spiritmaster and can still spam Rejuvenation with dual staves (I used it just fine with dual shields before even piecing together that recovering BP counted as a heal for Rejuvenation). You do lose out on the constant full HP via White Wind but I never found the need for that level of healing/there are other healers who can do just as well (in my case, Salve-Maker).

BP Drinks are very cumbersome to use... they only target one party member and they use up a lot of cash. Granted, you can get nearly infinite cash with an Elixir Mammon or the Big Pharma Trick but... they still only target one party member.



I don't want to derail this thread, but I do feel obligated to point out that I've made a lot of improvements to the Vampire/Spiritmaster build since its early days, and it's actually quite capable of fueling many teams on its own. The build puts out 3-5 BP per round with Hasten World, which averages out to 4BP per round, so any party members whose skills don't cost extra BP can take 4 actions each round with it. It only puts out one less BP per round than the dual-Staff Spiritmaster/Performer (which is 4-6 BP per round with Hasten World), and can at least match the BP output of the dual-Shield Spiritmaster/Performer you used to use. That's a pretty good deal, considering the build will completely replace your healer while also acting as support character/debuffer/tank.

In terms of Rage spam, it also works fine when used with proper skill rotations. With the Vampire/Spirimaster and my Salve-Maker/Merchant working together, my team can sustain consecutive turns of 4x Rage until my party's buffs start wearing off, and it can sustain 3x Rage quite easily. That's pretty much par for the course when it comes to BP batteries. A Spiritmaster/Performer still requires a Merchant ally (or some other secondary battery) to sustain 3 Rages per turn over many consecutive rounds. A dual-Staff Freelancer/Performer can sustain 3x Rage without the secondary battery, but comes with significantly less utility than either the Vampire/Spiritmaster or Spiritmaster/Performer. The only BP battery that can sustain consecutive rounds of 4x Rage without help is a Red Mage build in a BP Recovery team, and you either need to run Hasten World with that or leave your party poisoned throughout the battle. Of course, BP Recovery strategies also burn your party member's support ability slots and leave you exposed to status ailments, so it's very much a double-edged sword.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make a case that any of these builds are necessarily better than the others. For the dual-Staff Vampire/Spiritmaster, Spiritmaster/Performer, and Freelancer/Performer at least, all will accomplish similar goals, and each will fit best into different teams. Freelancer/Performer will give you the highest BP gain and is very durable, but it offers the least utility. Spiritmaster/Performer will give you the most varied range of support skills and respectable BP gain, but is the most fragile build of the three. The Vampire/Spiritmaster will replace your dedicated healer while remaining a fully functional BP battery/support character/tank, but won't give you much extra BP. All of these are excellent builds that are more than capable of taking on anything the game can throw at you.
#14alt_realityPosted 8/21/2014 5:37:17 PM(edited)
You might want to derail it a little o.O

And thank you for explaining how averages work.

The thing that TC needs to get out of this is there are a million and one builds that will function for the main game so... just try something and this board can help improve upon it since it's full of obsessive types (myself included).

There's just a few basic things any competent party will have and how they all mix together is up to you.

DPS (DK is ideal, Ninja is second best, and everything else ties for third)
Multitarget DPS (DK, Vampire, Summoner, and Arcanist are the most logical choices ...you can turn any Mage into an AoE caster if you want but it's not as effective)
Healing (White Mage, Vampire, Salve-Maker)
Buffs (So many things have buffs...)
Debuffs (Salve-Maker, Pirate, Vampire)
Low Leverage (You had better have a Merchant in your party... this is probably the single best skill in the game aside from Stillness which is just broken)
Elemental Amp (Yes, technically this is a buff but... it's a unique one that only Salve-Maker or Spiritmaster have)
Elemental Weakness Induction (Only Salve-Maker)
BP Recovery (The aforementioned methods are basically it unless you get really creative and/or stumble upon something else)

So your IDEAL team is going to have a Dark Knight, a Salve-Maker, and a Merchant in it somewhere and the other five slots are up to you.

It should be noted that non-item healing and non-item BP recovery will trigger Rejuvenation's healing requirement which is why pairing Vampire and Spiritmaster and Performer together is a functional route.

Merchant doesn't really require a whole lot of turns to do its thing so it pairs pretty well with Dark Knight or Salve-Maker which both need a lot of time to do what they do (though Salve-Maker not as much if you have a more competent healer around ...which by the way is completely unnecessary for the main game).

Granted, inducing elemental weaknesses isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary since there are a number of ways to hit 9999 even with Low Leverage up but... it's one of the easier debuffs to land and it stacks with other buffs and debuffs
---
"Are you one of those men who likes...other boys?" - Estelle Bright, Trails in the Sky
#15OwnagepuffsPosted 8/26/2014 10:25:54 AM
Soryuju32 posted...
Also, how much interest do you have in fighting the high level Nemeses?


Are high level nemeses even in circulation anymore? I retired BD since I spanked all of them :P

Did new ones come out?
---
".....It's fine, Mr. Wright... Even a bluff would suit me just fine... As long as you can... ..clear up this doubt inside me!"
-Apollo Justice
#16Soryuju32Posted 8/26/2014 10:52:37 AM
Ownagepuffs posted...

Are high level nemeses even in circulation anymore? I retired BD since I spanked all of them :P

Did new ones come out?


No new ones, but SQEX has started sending out old ones again so new players have a chance to fight them. Doesn't seem like Belphegor [+] or Leviathan [+] will ever see the light of day, sadly.
#17eucliwood07Posted 8/26/2014 5:27:36 PM
I like the suggestion of alt_reality.. just asking question... if you use minus strike (or other constant damage based on hp) when low leverage, leverage is active, the damage will be half?? like if is 9999 dage iwill be 4749 damage?? \

a
just asking, I didn't l used my hero skills and hasten world suport for bp bat.. i think you can alaso perform 4attack in 1 turn
#18OwnagepuffsPosted 8/31/2014 7:12:07 AM
Soryuju32 posted...
Ownagepuffs posted...

Are high level nemeses even in circulation anymore? I retired BD since I spanked all of them :P

Did new ones come out?


No new ones, but SQEX has started sending out old ones again so new players have a chance to fight them. Doesn't seem like Belphegor [+] or Leviathan [+] will ever see the light of day, sadly.


I really couldn't imagine Bel + since he is already a pain but Lev + sounds like it would be fun.
---
".....It's fine, Mr. Wright... Even a bluff would suit me just fine... As long as you can... ..clear up this doubt inside me!"
-Apollo Justice
#19alt_realityPosted 8/31/2014 7:27:30 AM
eucliwood07 posted...
I like the suggestion of alt_reality.. just asking question... if you use minus strike (or other constant damage based on hp) when low leverage, leverage is active, the damage will be half?? like if is 9999 dage iwill be 4749 damage?? \

a
just asking, I didn't l used my hero skills and hasten world suport for bp bat.. i think you can alaso perform 4attack in 1 turn


I'm fairly confident that Minus Strike/Phoenix Flight/Dark Breath/Dragon Breath will all ignore Low Leverage when calculating their damage.
---
"Are you one of those men who likes...other boys?" - Estelle Bright, Trails in the Sky
#20OwnagepuffsPosted 8/31/2014 8:08:08 AM
alt_reality posted...
eucliwood07 posted...
I like the suggestion of alt_reality.. just asking question... if you use minus strike (or other constant damage based on hp) when low leverage, leverage is active, the damage will be half?? like if is 9999 dage iwill be 4749 damage?? \

a
just asking, I didn't l used my hero skills and hasten world suport for bp bat.. i think you can alaso perform 4attack in 1 turn


I'm fairly confident that Minus Strike/Phoenix Flight/Dark Breath/Dragon Breath will all ignore Low Leverage when calculating their damage.


This is correct. They have fixed damage. LL affects only calculated damage.
---
".....It's fine, Mr. Wright... Even a bluff would suit me just fine... As long as you can... ..clear up this doubt inside me!"
-Apollo Justice