Some issues I had with the plot (**SPOILERS**)

#11bararad13Posted 8/22/2014 11:24:01 PM
and they did know the goal - awakning the crystal's untill the pattern on airy's wings will "herald the begining" you can even see in chapter 8 awakning scenes that they coutn the total number of crystal awakened in preparation for the end (as the wings has 1 mark on them) and ringabell discusses the pattern topic with tiz at the beginnig of chapter 6 - right after his memory began to recover
it's not they the backed down from airy's power but prepared and grew stronger untill tey be ready to confront her and "the real enemy" while being careful (rahter then simply afraid) of her in the meantime
#12Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/22/2014 11:28:48 PM
bararad13 posted...
a few notes:

as far as why the party continued following along airy's machinations and direction it has been shown specifacally in chapter 6's final scene when the party discusses whether should keep going.. you can clearly see that they understand full well that airy isn't a positive force and when edea asks - how nuch longer must they keep on doing this she is being told by ringabel that it will end when airy's wings pattern will herald the begining and tiz says that it is necassary to confront their reall enemy - the party aren't actually as stupid as many people here accuse them of

yulyana's task was to direct and guide the vestal but also kill her if it comes down to it and it'll be necassary to kill airy - the evil one(though that reason is the true element preventing yuyana from carrying his task)

ringabel is afraid of airy and thus is very carful as not to alert her of their awarness of her true nature - they were dusccusing it discretly and preparing for the end though agnes is in denial untill the very end due to the fact that accepting airy's true nature is tentamount to denying everythis she was raised upon - and that's very diffucult - espcially for those raised on reglious ideas - offen train on acceptance reverance of ideas and obidiance - unlike people who were born and raised to think indepandantly and maybe even critically and not accept everything - it's evident in ringabel's behavior for example

edea didn't comment upon their similiarity because she didn't realize how similiar(or identical) they are untill obeserivng them closely and together - even when she saw alternis without his armor she assumed it to be ringabel - so maybe she didn't saw alternis in exactly the same look ans ringabel and thus didn't fathom that they are truely as similiar as they are - and certainlt not the same person (asn how could she possibly imagine the idea of parallal universaves?)

and about fighting style? what do you mean? it's class depandant rahter then person depandant so how could she make comparisons based on that?


Well the fighting style part was really only a small, insignificant and inconsequential part of my analogy, but to explain: Alternis Dim was, at that point, the only known bearer of the Dark Knight Asterisk. The journal had a few move names that clearly fit such class i.e. Dark Bane. But really, you could take that 'fighting style' comment right out of my post and it'd detract nothing; my point still stands.

Now, regarding the end of chapter 6...I'm well aware that the party knew Airy wasn't a positive force, and that's exactly why it's so baffling that they continued awakening the crystals. If the party did indeed know that Airy was trying to awaken some sort of entity, and that that entity was their true enemy, than their knowledge of such makes just as little sense as their actions in the last few chapters. There's no way they could possibly have known that. Like I said, all they knew was that Airy wanted to bring about the harrowing. They were aware of no specifics. Thus they couldn't have been waiting for Airy to unleash their 'true enemy,' or they somehow learned of such when the player wasn't watching. Either way, it makes little sense.

Regarding Agnes and her inability to accept Airy as evil due to it conflicting with the beliefs she was raised upon...that's not quite right. Agnes wasn't raised upon anything that Airy preaches. She wasn't raised to believe in cryst-fairies and the desirability of awakening the crystals. She was raised on the belief that the crystals are a blessing and what not. Airy being evil does not contradict this. The only person that ever suggested that Airy was the amalgamation of the knowledge of all vestals was...Airy. The only 'teachings' that contradict Airy being evil are the lies told by Airy. cont.
#13Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/22/2014 11:35:56 PM
Just to add something that couldn't fit in my last post:

Agnes' refusal to believe in Airy's misdeeds and 'evilness' (for lack of a better term) have nothing to do with religion. It's naivety, pure and simple. It's simply a matter of Agnes tremendously lacking in perception, and taking everything Airy says as irrefutable truth, despite having met Airy literally moments before she met Tiz.

Also, regarding what you (referring to bararad13 here, didn't want to quote your post twice in a row) said about Edea and Ringabel...I'm afraid I couldn't follow that paragraph too well, but from what I understand...you're saying she didn't notice similarities till she saw them beside each other. Okay, fair enough. But Braev and Mahzer recognised Ringabel in a heartbeat, so why wouldn't Edea? Also, you're forgetting about all the signs embedded in the journal. Even I figured it out reasonably early on, so why couldn't Edea, when she's known Alternis from childhood?
#14Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/22/2014 11:40:59 PM
bararad13 posted...
and they did know the goal - awakning the crystal's untill the pattern on airy's wings will "herald the begining" you can even see in chapter 8 awakning scenes that they coutn the total number of crystal awakened in preparation for the end (as the wings has 1 mark on them) and ringabell discusses the pattern topic with tiz at the beginnig of chapter 6 - right after his memory began to recover
it's not they the backed down from airy's power but prepared and grew stronger untill tey be ready to confront her and "the real enemy" while being careful (rahter then simply afraid) of her in the meantime


As I said earlier, there's no way they could have known about a "true enemy" behind all this. There was nothing at all that suggested some larger entity behind the game's events until the final chapter. How could the PC's have known? That they didn't believe they were ready to confront Airy alone justifies them not outright accusing Airy of deceiving them, but it doesn't justify their continued awakening of all the crystals. If they didn't believe they could handle Airy alone, they could have come up with some pretence to visit Yulyana or DeRosso, and enlisted their aid. Surely Airy would have been no match for the lot of them. Hell, even Braev would've jumped to their assistance if Airy began assaulting them in front of him. They weren't Braev's enemies in the first place, he would've been happy to help. If they truly did believe that awakening the crystals was the best course of action, and that's the justification that the developers intended, then they really are just silly people.
#15Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/22/2014 11:43:24 PM
bararad13 posted...
they may not know of oroborus but they did know of the fact the airy isn't the true enemy and I have described in my post - check the yulayan scenes in chapters 5 and 6 as well as the holly pillar scenes in chapter 6's end and see for yourself


But from where did they learn this? I know of the chapter 6 holy pillar scenes, and it raised some serious questions. Either they knew of a larger entity, or they were simply awaiting the harrowing. Either way, it makes little sense. They learned of a larger entity from no one (they couldn't have known), and it'd make no sense for them to simply await (or more accurately, bring about) the harrowing.
#16bararad13Posted 8/22/2014 11:47:21 PM
but it has
we are never told of the full extent of the crystalist teachings but certainly they include the part of cryst-fairy's importance - and upon confronting alternis in chapter 6 and him wishing to slay airy they have a little conversation in the battle in which agnes says that the teachings describe the cryst fairy's roles in aiding and guiding the vestal - and alternis replies that it's a lie created by the orthodoxy - I belive that the entire teachings of the orthodoxy are in fact a part of airy's plan and I think it was her's and oroborus's doing that shaped them to advance their plans..which is why both braev and alternis refer to it as a cult

also breav and alternis did try to explain themselves but something always came in the way - whether it was braev's temper (hotheaded like his daughter but he didn't try to kill her - only to stop her form continuing in awakning the crystals) or alternis's belief the party is being decieved and thus can't be reasoned with or in chapter 6 when he belief it's a mirage created to decive him and thus try to force it away rather then continue talking..
#17bararad13Posted 8/22/2014 11:48:36 PM
they know of a msyterious enemy that will arive when airy's mission is complete (they explicitaly refer to one in those scenes) as yulyana thells tiz and agnes about him in chapter 6..
#18bararad13Posted 8/22/2014 11:51:31 PM
what you suggest do in fact happen in the flase ending in which they flat out destroy a crystal and confront airy - but in the real ending they instead choose to follow along so that they can stop the enemy for good rather then mearly delaying it - as I said before they say something of that specifc nature in the holly pillar scenes of chapter 6 - they say "true enemy" so they know full well there's something behind airy even if they don't know his exact nature..
#19Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 12:02:16 AM
bararad13 posted...
but it has
we are never told of the full extent of the crystalist teachings but certainly they include the part of cryst-fairy's importance - and upon confronting alternis in chapter 6 and him wishing to slay airy they have a little conversation in the battle in which agnes says that the teachings describe the cryst fairy's roles in aiding and guiding the vestal - and alternis replies that it's a lie created by the orthodoxy - I belive that the entire teachings of the orthodoxy are in fact a part of airy's plan and I think it was her's and oroborus's doing that shaped them to advance their plans..which is why both braev and alternis refer to it as a cult

also breav and alternis did try to explain themselves but something always came in the way - whether it was braev's temper (hotheaded like his daughter but he didn't try to kill her - only to stop her form continuing in awakning the crystals) or alternis's belief the party is being decieved and thus can't be reasoned with or in chapter 6 when he belief it's a mirage created to decive him and thus try to force it away rather then continue talking..


No, you're first paragraph is wrong. I can almost quote the conversation had word for word.
Alternis: "That fairy intends to unleash the power of the crystals on luxendarc. You've all fallen for her ruse, even you, wind vestal." That's pretty much all that was said. There's never been any mention of a crus-fairy existing in crystallist teachings, and I think it's assumed that this was a lie spouted by Airy.

Alternis in chapter 6 has no relevance...just thought I'd point that out. He was distraught over Edea's death, and thought that the Edea that appeared before him was a mirage because her instance in that world was dead. Has nothing to do with Airy, deception or crystallism.

Now I did mention that my first point (thought it's labelled (2) thanks to a typo) was my smallest complaint, since there is justification in the fact that the party will never listen. That's why I've shed so little attention on it. But the only instance in which I recall anyone trying to explain things is Alternis at the end of chapter 5. Braev never went into enough detail to serve his stance justice, nor did anyone else.

bararad13 posted...
they know of a msyterious enemy that will arive when airy's mission is complete (they explicitaly refer to one in those scenes) as yulyana thells tiz and agnes about him in chapter 6..

What? I just re-watched all the conversations between the party and Yulyana, and there is no such mention. He speaks of an "evil one," but this is clearly in reference to Airy. He even says that the evil one was among them when they approached him.
#20Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 12:05:18 AM
bararad13 posted...
what you suggest do in fact happen in the flase ending in which they flat out destroy a crystal and confront airy - but in the real ending they instead choose to follow along so that they can stop the enemy for good rather then mearly delaying it - as I said before they say something of that specifc nature in the holly pillar scenes of chapter 6 - they say "true enemy" so they know full well there's something behind airy even if they don't know his exact nature..


The point I am making is that there is no way they could have known of such a "true enemy," so as to know that they would only be delaying his advent by destroying a crystal. That scene at the end of chapter 6 makes little sense, unless "true enemy" was supposed to refer to Airy (I don't think it was, but that's the only way I can make sense of it). I just re-watched all the cutscenes involving Yulyana in chapter 6, and he makes mention of no such entity. He only makes mention of the "evil one" when speaking of the enemy to the party, and this is clearly in reference to Airy. I can tell you that they most certainly didn't learn of a "true enemy" in chapters 1-5.