Some issues I had with the plot (**SPOILERS**)

#21Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 12:13:32 AM
bararad13 posted...
but it has
we are never told of the full extent of the crystalist teachings but certainly they include the part of cryst-fairy's importance - and upon confronting alternis in chapter 6 and him wishing to slay airy they have a little conversation in the battle in which agnes says that the teachings describe the cryst fairy's roles in aiding and guiding the vestal - and alternis replies that it's a lie created by the orthodoxy - I belive that the entire teachings of the orthodoxy are in fact a part of airy's plan and I think it was her's and oroborus's doing that shaped them to advance their plans..which is why both braev and alternis refer to it as a cult

also breav and alternis did try to explain themselves but something always came in the way - whether it was braev's temper (hotheaded like his daughter but he didn't try to kill her - only to stop her form continuing in awakning the crystals) or alternis's belief the party is being decieved and thus can't be reasoned with or in chapter 6 when he belief it's a mirage created to decive him and thus try to force it away rather then continue talking..


I think there's a bit of confusion in your references. It's Braev that accuses the orthodoxy of deception. I'll quote it for you:
Braev: "Wind vestal, your awakening of the crystals may have edged us toward the harrowing"
Agnes: "You have it wrong! We awaken the crystals to save the world from the harrowing"
Braev: "That is merely the orthodoxy's view. I do not know what deceit lies behind it"

I think that's what you may have been trying to refer to. Regarding it, we don't know what crystallism says conceding the awakening of the crystals. I am of the opinion that it doesn't advocate it as a positive course of action, and that it was Airy's deception alone that nudges Agnes towards that course of action.

Now, regarding Braev and Alternis referring to the orthodoxy as a cult...well, it is a cult, but that has nothing to do with Airy. They call it a cult because everything the orthodoxy has ever done has been vile, ruthless and avaricious. The purging of the plagued 20 years before the game's events came to pass, the whole conflict with DeRosso...everything they do suggests and insatiable greed and lust for power, and the crystals are merely a propagandistic tool in achieving that end. That's why they're a cult. It has nothing to do with Airy.
#22Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 12:28:56 AM
Just correcting a typo in my last post:

I meant to say: "We don't know what crystallism says *concerning*..."
Also, a bit of tense confusion in : "that it was Airy's deception alone that nudges Agnes towards that..."
#23bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 1:18:21 AM
regarding the alternis battle in chapter 6:I meant the convo after that
agnes says that the teachings talk about the role of the cryst- fairy in supporting the vestal and to that alternis replies that those are fabrications of the ortodoxhy - you mentioned the only part that doesn't contradict you statment but left out the rest.. (which is why you thought I was confused - because the part you left of the battle convo with alternis in chapter 6 is exactly the part I was refering too)

if if they didn't learn of the true enemy - why are they clrealy talking about one in the end of chapter 6 while saying that it is the reason they keep repeating the cycle (again holly pillar scene while airy is meditating and can't her them)
#24bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 1:20:39 AM
it is connected because the teaching refer to the cryst fairy as being benevolent while in truth it's a lie meant to convince the vestals to do what airy says without question..(again what you wrote is alternis's first line - check what agnes answers him and what he says to her afterwards)
#25Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 2:30:53 AM
bararad13 posted...
regarding the alternis battle in chapter 6:I meant the convo after that
agnes says that the teachings talk about the role of the cryst- fairy in supporting the vestal and to that alternis replies that those are fabrications of the ortodoxhy - you mentioned the only part that doesn't contradict you statment but left out the rest.. (which is why you thought I was confused - because the part you left of the battle convo with alternis in chapter 6 is exactly the part I was refering too)

if if they didn't learn of the true enemy - why are they clrealy talking about one in the end of chapter 6 while saying that it is the reason they keep repeating the cycle (again holly pillar scene while airy is meditating and can't her them)


We're going in circles. My point is that that scene at the holy pillar makes no sense, because they HADN'T learned of any "true enemy" by that point in the game. That's why I'm saying the scene just pulled the "true enemy" part from nowhere.

Regarding Alternis' dialogue in chapter 6...what?
Seriously, what? I have no idea what you're on about. Here, I'll load up the event and type out the entire conversation for you:

Alternis: "The putrid reek of decay, muddy waters, hunger, scorn...My earliest recollection always starts there - abandoned by my mother at a tender age. I've always been alone, for as long as I can remember. Always dancing on the razor's edge between life and death. And always have I hated. My mothers, my circumstance, the world. Myself. At a young age, I gained the powers of darkness, and hatred was my sustenance. Then one day, my sword of hate and rage was turned aside by one who wielded a kind and just blade. The templar saved me. he gave me a righteous rebuke. A kind family. I vowed to serve him and no other. I would lay my life down for his ideals, stake my being upon protecting those he loved. And yet...! And yet I failed."
Edea: "Alternis..."
Alternis: "I've no more need for this... This power couldn't even protect Edea..."
Ringabel: "Are you so sure? Without darkness, you'll..."
Alternis: "It's too late. All of it... I can't return to the forces. To the council... It matters not. Take it. Take it, and go in my stead. Do this for me."
Ringabel: "......"

I quoted everything to the detail, making sure that even the number of dots in Ringabel's "......" was spot on. Now, if you would, show me what exactly you're referring to. It might help your argument a little.

Since I have a feeling you may have been referring to chapter 5, I'll also go to the liberty of typing out his battle dialogue there too.

Alternis: "Do you know that fairy's true objective? She intends to let the power of the crystals run wild! You have all fallen for her ruse. That includes you, wind vestal."

That's...it. Don't believe me? Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaWjkjMfWPM
Again, if you'd kindly point out the dialogue you're referring to, it'd really help.

Also, I think you may be missing a point here. Did you ever consider that Airy...might not actually be a cryst-fairy? It's not particularly hard for her to simply lie about it. She's lied about numerous other things, so why couldn't she be lying about being a cryst-fairy? If she was created to tear world-barriers and deceive heroes of light, it makes sense that she'd be created to look like an assistant. She's not exactly going to approach them in her giant ugly larval form now, is she? Plus, considering Airy's sister, who knows what the truth is behind the cryst-fairies? Anyway, I digress. You're quoting non-existent lines, unless the video and I both happened to finish the fight too fast to see the dialogue you saw. Maybe a video would help your case.
#26Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 2:47:36 AM
By the way, just to avoid any misunderstandings: I know I said "I'll go the liberty of typing out 'his' battle dialogue for you," but I assure you I typed out ALL the battle dialogue in the Alternis fight of chapter 5. That was poor wording on my part. It makes no difference, though...since Alternis is the only character that has any dialogue in his chapter 5 boss battle. That's why I still have no idea what you're on about. Unless Agnes' dialogue comes later in the battle, and the youtube video and I both finished it too early to hear Agnes' dialogue, I believe you're imagining things. If that is the case, maybe you could find a video backing up your argument. Also, please don't claim that the dialogue occurs in the scene with Alternis after that, because it doesn't. I can type that out for you if you wish, but maybe it'd be faster for you to just check you're event viewer.

I will state, however, that I may know what it is you're referring to. You seem to have mixed up several events, but as far as Agnes' dialogue regarding cryst-fairies, I think you're referring to this:

Agnes: "Well, if even Airy is at a loss, then there is no point in debating this any further. We shall just have to awaken the crystals again as we did in the previous world."
Ringabel: "I'm starting to wonder. Is what Airy says right?"
Agnes: "What?"
Airy: "Are you saying what we've been doing is wrong? I can't blame you for doubting, but..."
Ringabel: "No on has ever tried to awaken the crystals and evoke the holy pillar, have they? That means no one knows whether that will erase the great chasm. Not even Airy."
Agnes: "But Airy is the culmination of the wisdom of generations of vestals. She cannot be wrong."
Ringabel: "Then how do you explain Alternis Dim's worlds? What did he mean?"
Airy: "What Alernis said? Wait, what did he say? Agnes?"
Agnes: "What he spoke of was inconceivable?"
Ringabel: "But Dim isn't the only one. Edea's father believed that awakening the crystals was dangerous."
Tiz: "That's enough, Ringabel. If we believe his claims, than everything we've done so far was for naught."
Ringabel: "Is that reason enough to reject them out of hand, though?"
Airy: "Um, excuse me. How about including me in this conversation?"
Agnes: "......"

That's pretty much everything relevant. Again, no mention whatsoever of teachings. Nor is there any mention of the "role" of the cryst-fairies here. All she says that might resemble what you're trying to refer to is "But Airy is the culmination of the wisdom of generations of vestals. She cannot be wrong." Again, I doubt this is part of crystallist teachings. It's probably just a lie that Airy fed Agnes. As far as I know, there has never been any dialogue relating teachings/scriptures to cryst-fairies. If this isn't the dialogue you're referring to, then you're just going to have to find it yourself, and please, quote it, because you're starting to confuse me. If it is, then...you've misquoted it, because there's no mention of teachings, and there's no line in which Alternis speaks of the orthodoxy's lies.
#27bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 3:04:51 AM(edited)
I see what happened and we were both incorrect - I was actually refering to the chapter 5 battle dialogue(happens mid battle between alternis and agnes and both speak) rather then chapter 6
what you quoted here however is the chapter 4 alternis dialogue while the part I was talking about is in the chapter 5 battle (I am not sure if alternis speaks first but the certain part is that airy speaks about the cryst fairy's part in the teachings and alternis calls it a fabrication..
#28bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 3:01:30 AM
Agnes: "Well, if even Airy is at a loss, then there is no point in debating this any further. We shall just have to awaken the crystals again as we did in the previous world."
Ringabel: "I'm starting to wonder. Is what Airy says right?"
Agnes: "What?"
Airy: "Are you saying what we've been doing is wrong? I can't blame you for doubting, but..."
Ringabel: "No on has ever tried to awaken the crystals and evoke the holy pillar, have they? That means no one knows whether that will erase the great chasm. Not even Airy."
Agnes: "But Airy is the culmination of the wisdom of generations of vestals. She cannot be wrong."
Ringabel: "Then how do you explain Alternis Dim's worlds? What did he mean?"
Airy: "What Alernis said? Wait, what did he say? Agnes?"
Agnes: "What he spoke of was inconceivable?"
Ringabel: "But Dim isn't the only one. Edea's father believed that awakening the crystals was dangerous."
Tiz: "That's enough, Ringabel. If we believe his claims, than everything we've done so far was for naught."
Ringabel: "Is that reason enough to reject them out of hand, though?"
Airy: "Um, excuse me. How about including me in this conversation?"
Agnes: "......"

this text happen after what I speak about and refers directly to it..
#29bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 3:04:30 AM
-they don't know about the sister untill after the final battle

-agnes is in denial regarding airy's lies as if she hadn't she might realizes that the fairy form is a decit

-there is not such thing as a cryst-fairy as this was a fabrication of the orthodoxy (that I'd guess airy is )behind in order to further her ends..
#30bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 3:07:15 AM
and while I am not sure what was the exact point that the learned of the existance of the true enemy I think it was alluded to in the chapters 5 and 6 yulana scenes when he is telling tiz and agnes about the way in which the "Evil one" will apear in a disgiuse and seduce the vestal to drive the crystals beserk and those trigger the horrowing and the arrivel of the true evil