Some issues I had with the plot (**SPOILERS**)

#31Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 5:06:27 AM
bararad13 posted...
I see what happened and we were both incorrect - I was actually refering to the chapter 5 battle dialogue(happens mid battle between alternis and agnes and both speak) rather then chapter 6
what you quoted here however is the chapter 4 alternis dialogue while the part I was talking about is in the chapter 5 battle (I am not sure if alternis speaks first but the certain part is that airy speaks about the cryst fairy's part in the teachings and alternis calls it a fabrication..


My god, it's hard to get through to you. No, I quoted the chapter 5 battle dialogue. Did you even follow the link I included? It said Alternis (2). That was the second encounter with Alternis. The first encounter is in chapter 4. Therefore, the second encounter takes place in chapter 5. Not intending to offend you, I do have to ask that you try to keep up here, because this is getting a little tiring. I quoted the chapter 5 battle dialogue, and what you're "referring to" did not take place. There were only a few lines of dialogue, all by Alternis, and no mention of "teachings" or the orthodoxy.

bararad13 posted...
and while I am not sure what was the exact point that the learned of the existance of the true enemy I think it was alluded to in the chapters 5 and 6 yulana scenes when he is telling tiz and agnes about the way in which the "Evil one" will apear in a disgiuse and seduce the vestal to drive the crystals beserk and those trigger the horrowing and the arrivel of the true evil


Yes. I mentioned this ages ago. That was clearly referring to Airy. Tiz even asks if the evil one was among them when they approached him, and Yulyana affirms that the evil one was indeed among them. There is no mention of any other entity. Once again, I will quote all the dialogue in this event for you:

Tiz: "Did the angel mention anything to you other than the crystals?"
Yulyana: "Other than the crystals? Hmm... Yes, I believe her words were, "I was deceived by the Evil One." Her voice was heavy with regret."
Tiz: "The Evil One..."
Yulyana: "This Evil One used deceit to drive the four crystals out of control. That tore the barrier between worlds, she said, opening a way to the world beyond......!No!!"
Tiz: "...... And was this a hypothetical future she saw?"
Yulyana: "No, the angel and her two comrades had stood before that evil in battle that day... It was after her allies was slain that the creature boasted of what it would do. She spoke to me with lifeless eyes drowned in tears."
Tiz: "What then?"
Yulyana: "As the angel faded before my eyes, she said to me... Deliver onto me this pendant when next I return to you. And should I appear before you with the Evil One, hesitate not to do what you must to us."
Agnes: "You speak of this pendant."
Tiz: "And was this Evil One the angel spoke of with us when we first came to you?"
Yulyana: "...Yes, I dare say so..."
Agnes: "Then-!"
Yulyana: "I could not do it. I could not, knowing I would have to slay you, vestal. Precious girl..."
Tiz: "...I see. Then, to remove all doubt from the matter, I ask you now. This Evil One..."

That's it. There's no mention of a 'true evil.' No one even says anything regarding the harrowing. Thus it is absolutely impossible for them to have known about a "true enemy" by the end of chapter 6. Impossible. Look, from now on, you're going to have to start quoting dialogue yourself when you make these claims, because it's not my job to chase cutscenes to prove that you're referring to nonexistent content. If you claim dialogue exists, quote it and its source.
#32Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 5:13:38 AM
bararad13 posted...
-they don't know about the sister untill after the final battle
I fail to see how this is relevant.

-agnes is in denial regarding airy's lies as if she hadn't she might realizes that the fairy form is a decit
I know. And I'm saying this is absolutely absurd, and simply existed to carry the plot on, since the writers probably ran themselves right into a brick wall. How can someone remain in "denial" with all this glaring evidence in their face? It makes no sense. Plus, what about the other 3. Did they simply go along with Agnes and continue supporting the enemy to avoid hurting Agnes' precious feelings. This is a weak excuse for the team's actions.

-there is not such thing as a cryst-fairy as this was a fabrication of the orthodoxy (that I'd guess airy is )behind in order to further her ends..
Completely unsubstantiated statement. I don't believe that there is any such thing as a cryst-fairy either, but it's more likely that this was Airy's lie rather than the orthodoxy's. Like I said, in no cutscene does Agnes or anyone else mention the existence of a "crest-fairy" in the orthodoxy's teachings. There is also nothing to suggest that Airy had anything at all to do with the orthodoxy. Please find some dialogue that backs up your suggestion and quote it, along with its source (i.e. the cutscene/battle it came from). And no more imaginary leads. Without meaning to be rude, I'm getting tired of chasing up non-existent dialogue. From now on, please quote the exact dialogue you're referring to, and tell me where it came from. If you can't find it, then don't just assume it exists and expect me to take your word on it.
#33bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 5:25:58 AM(edited)
alright
here's what I'll do
take a look in this video that supports my "unbaised and imaginary claims" (alternis battle 2 -chapter 5) and tell me whether or not you have indeed listed the battle dialogue shown here and whether or not its says what I said it does (there are multiple parts to the dialogue - for the most relvant one - check what happen on the 8th minute on the video (8:02 to be exact)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzzSlEWbBzg
and see for yourself

and regarding the relancy of the sister - you said that it's supposed to show them that she is lting and I showed you that they ddin't know about it
#34bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 5:28:16 AM
adn while I can't find the exact moment in which they learn of the true enemy my belief is that after talking with yulyana and maybe derosso they figured out that what the sage refers to as beyond plus the info on the harrowing means that there's something bigger then airy coming and what what they intend to stop
#35Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 5:41:29 AM
bararad13 posted...
alright
here's what I'll do
take a look in this video that supports my "unbaised and imaginary claims" (alternis battle 2 -chapter 5) and tell me whether or not you have indeed listed the battle dialogue shown here and whether or not its says what I said it does (there are multiple parts to the dialogue - for the most relvant one - check what happen on the 8th minute on the video (8:02 to be exact)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzzSlEWbBzg
and see for yourself

and regarding the relancy of the sister - you said that it's supposed to show them that she is lting and I showed you that they ddin't know about it


Okay. That's why I asked you (way WAY back) whether or not the dialogue took place later in the battle, and if it was possible that both the video I referred you to and I happened to win too fast to hear it. If you'd clarified the issue from the beginning, we could have saved ourselves all this meaningless hubbub. Okay, you've proven your point regarding Alternis accusing the orthodoxy's teachings of being deceptive, and that the teachings do indeed mention cryst-fairies. I still don't buy that this is a lie on the orthodoxy's part. I think it's far far more likely that Airy is the one lying than it is that the orthodoxy's scriptures contain deception. As far as we know, the only thing backing up the claim that Airy IS indeed a cryst-fairy is her own word. If she is a cryst-fairy, then surely her sister is as well, and her sister expresses gratitude to the player for stopping Airy's plans. This opens up the possibility that Airy was corrupted by Ouroboros, or wasn't performing her duties as cryst-fairy and was instead using her title to deceive Agnes. I think these are far more likely than Airy having distorted the very roots of crystallist teachings, which even Yulyana and DeRosso didn't take contention with. The teachings were common between Adventism and Crystallism, after all. It was the system of management and the emphasis on a hierarchical structure that was different. The orthodoxy simply corrupted the purpose of controlling the crystals, desiring to 'commercialise' them, in a sense, but the core crystallist values followed by the faithful remained unchanged, and Yulyana broke the system apart to separate the core faith and the shallow commercialisation (through the asterisks and the implementation of the vestal system). Thus it is highly unlikely that the teachings are lie; rather, I believe Airy is the liar here, not the scriptures. Doesn't that seem more logical? Pretty much everything that she's said has been a lie, so why would we assume that she's telling the truth when she says she's a cryst-fairy and that she's performing the duties given to cryst-fairies?
#36Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 5:46:43 AM
bararad13 posted...
adn while I can't find the exact moment in which they learn of the true enemy my belief is that after talking with yulyana and maybe derosso they figured out that what the sage refers to as beyond plus the info on the harrowing means that there's something bigger then airy coming and what what they intend to stop


The sage only said that Airy intends to break through to the world(s) beyond, probably referring to all the other instances of Luxendarc. I doubt that the party silently put together the theory that there was a larger entity, and if they did happen to magically do so (since there really was nothing at all that suggested it), than that's silly, and really just a pretence to avoid admitting that the game had a plot hole. It really isn't that big a deal. It's not like I'm detracting from the game in anyway. I'm just saying that there are elements of the plot that don't add up, and I don't really think it can be denied.
#37bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 5:49:20 AM(edited)
I agree with most of what you said
but I think that the fact that there are no other cryst fairies (we don't know anything about airy's sister) and even another vestal (olivia) didn't recognise her or know what airy is proves that the very idea of cryst fairies is most likely a hoax - remember that airy has been around for thousands of years and it wouldn't be far fatched to assumed that she manipulated events in the previous worlds and somhow affected other words as well(details of the effects of one dimension on others aren't truly clarified similar to the exact mechanics of derosso's immortality)

as for why I didn't post the video before - I didn't think there was a need..
#38bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 5:48:43 AM
it might be a plot hole or it might be explained somewhere.. as I can't find a definitative proof I'll have to admit to having no answer on this one..
#39Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 6:05:00 AM
bararad13 posted...
I agree with most of what you said
but I think that the fact that there are no other cryst fairies (we don't know anything about airy's sister) and even another vestal (olivia) didn't recognise her or know what airy is proves that the very idea of cryst fairies is most likely a hoax - remember that airy has been around for thousands of years and it wouldn't be far fatched to assumed that she manipulated events in the previous worlds and somhow affected other words as well(details of the effects of one dimension on others aren't truly clarified similar to the exact mechanics of derosso's immortality)

as for why I didn't post the video before - I didn't think there was a need..


That is entirely possible. We don't actually know any in-depth information about the cryst-fairies. Regarding the video, I do think it would have been helpful, but I can see why you may not have thought there to be a necessity. In the video I posted (and in my own play through of the game), Alternis was defeated too fast for that dialogue to occur. That's why I had no idea what you were referring to. It did indeed exist, and I was surprised to hear it in the video, but in my play through I beat him before it came up. The reason I take contention with the suggestion that the part knew about Airy and was using her as 'bait' to bring out the true enemy is because of how they act in the last chapter. I'm sure you would have recognised this as well. In chapter 6, they speak about awaiting the true enemy, and in chapter 8, they countdown the number of crystals awakened. This does suggest that they know Airy's ploy...but that's why the finale makes no sense. Watch the first few cutscenes of the finale again and you'll see what I mean. They're all so shocked to see that Airy is actually an enemy, and Tiz even says to Agnes "there's no way we could have known..." which is bollocks. Edea is also disappointed with herself for having been deceived. When the finale is just starting, they believe Airy's lie about the great chasm being dispelled, and all excitedly run onto the deck. If they knew her ploy, and were willingly following along with her plan to bring out their true enemy, this behaviour really makes no sense. Wouldn't you agree?
#40Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 6:05:44 AM
bararad13 posted...
it might be a plot hole or it might be explained somewhere.. as I can't find a definitative proof I'll have to admit to having no answer on this one..


True. There is very little said on the matter. Maybe they left a lot unexplained so that the sequel could handle it.