Some issues I had with the plot (**SPOILERS**)

#41Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 6:23:50 AM
Just to clear things up a little, I'm not trying to detract from the game in anyway or suggest that it's bad. I absolutely adore the game, and would recommend it to anyone in a heartbeat. It's for that exact reason that I criticise these relatively minor shortcomings. I think more effort could have been put into avoiding some of these plot holes, but I still thoroughly enjoyed the game and its plot. It's not exactly an unfamiliar concept; people that like games often critique them and point out their shortcomings, all to allow for progression and improvement. I just don't want to give off the impression that I'm trying to troll or spoil the experience for anyone. I just felt that some discussion of these issues would be in most people's best interests.
#42bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 6:32:26 AM
I agree with what you said that it's hard to justify their behavior in light of what they have learned - the only way I can try to explain that agnes kept wishing (and the others as well) that airy is indeed what she claims to be and that borderline fantaic belief(at least agnes's) is not only the reason why the betrayal hurt so much but also why airy targeted the vestals in the first place'the way I see it they knew and decided to trust agnes to the end - as otherwise they really do seem rather stupid and obstinate.. it's possible that they simply kept wishing that's all a mistake and that they really did saved the world untill awakning the crystals (or maybe tiz and edea do suspect that but choose to put that aside and follow agnes)and were obviously hurt and devestated from the brutality of airy's betrayal(and the fact that she almost killed them)even if they knew that it's going to happan - such is the nature of psychological defense mechanisms such as denial or repression - when they cramble due to not being aligned with the truth fro too long or to strongly they tend to leave an person shattered - and that's exactly what happend to agnes - while the entire group (minus ringabel) were hurt and betrayed it's obvious agnes was the one who was hurt and suffering the most - that's the way I interperate those events and they way they make the most sense to me but of course it might just be me trying to read to much into it..
#43bararad13Posted 8/23/2014 6:35:54 AM
I understand - and as someone who like to go deeper and understand the true meaning of fiction and art I consume (I am a film and television major) I can certainly relate - I truly think those discusions are a postive things and allow us fans to enjoy and appriciate the game in an even better and deeper ways - even if it's by discussing flaws it might have..
after all a room for improvment might mean that the sequal will be even better - or that they withheld info on porpuse - certainly won't be the fist time that happen in a game..
#44Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/23/2014 6:55:50 AM
bararad13 posted...
I agree with what you said that it's hard to justify their behavior in light of what they have learned - the only way I can try to explain that agnes kept wishing (and the others as well) that airy is indeed what she claims to be and that borderline fantaic belief(at least agnes's) is not only the reason why the betrayal hurt so much but also why airy targeted the vestals in the first place'the way I see it they knew and decided to trust agnes to the end - as otherwise they really do seem rather stupid and obstinate.. it's possible that they simply kept wishing that's all a mistake and that they really did saved the world untill awakning the crystals (or maybe tiz and edea do suspect that but choose to put that aside and follow agnes)and were obviously hurt and devestated from the brutality of airy's betrayal(and the fact that she almost killed them)even if they knew that it's going to happan - such is the nature of psychological defense mechanisms such as denial or repression - when they cramble due to not being aligned with the truth fro too long or to strongly they tend to leave an person shattered - and that's exactly what happend to agnes - while the entire group (minus ringabel) were hurt and betrayed it's obvious agnes was the one who was hurt and suffering the most - that's the way I interperate those events and they way they make the most sense to me but of course it might just be me trying to read to much into it..


Actually, I think it was along those lines. They were deceiving themselves to avoid being hurt. It just starts to grate on the player after a while, particularly when Tiz says that they "had no way of knowing" after they were warned so many times.

bararad13 posted...
I understand - and as someone who like to go deeper and understand the true meaning of fiction and art I consume (I am a film and television major) I can certainly relate - I truly think those discusions are a postive things and allow us fans to enjoy and appriciate the game in an even better and deeper ways - even if it's by discussing flaws it might have..
after all a room for improvment might mean that the sequal will be even better - or that they withheld info on porpuse - certainly won't be the fist time that happen in a game..


Well I'm certainly glad that you can understand the sentiment. I know there are a lot of people that instantly disregard any form of criticism as 'flaming' or 'trolling' and just attack who ever it is that's criticising any aspect of a game they love. I think what they don't understand is that people can dislike one or two aspects of a package but still love the package as a whole, which is exactly how I feel about this game. I don't like what the developers did with the second half of the game, and I think some minor elements of the plot could have used some refinement, but as a whole, I absolutely adored the game, and felt it was a huge breath of fresh air after all the recent FF entries.
#45Hirokey123Posted 8/23/2014 12:29:19 PM
Well since the character part has been tackled pretty thoroughly.

Yes it is, in fact they still keep the final part of angel's words a secret even until the promised time. Braev was trusted with the secret by Yulyana and DeRosso and only a few people were told by Braev. Yulyana couldn't do what was asked of him and instead decided to wait, watch, and help you find another way. DeRosso tried to stop you in his own way but gave up and join Yulyana in just waiting, watching, and guiding you down your chosen path.

Actually the journal makes it pretty clear as they right at this moment that DeRosso's sacrifice to destroy the immortality amulet is what granted immortality to all his selves including himself. The DeRosso's always explain it as they heard his words and reached out to the voice finding themselves filled with the power of immortality. DeRosso even had two theories it was either himself or some dark being and in the end both pose true. DeRosso gives immortality to himself earlier in time and to all his selves in that point of time across all worlds it's not hard to understand or even a stretch of logic. It's quite possibly the most straightforward loop in the game.

The celestial realm being our world is not a theory it's flat out confirmed in the final battle when he rips open a hole into it and says "behold the celestial realm". At this time your 3DS camera turns on and projects what it sees into the tear. So when he says behold the celestial realm what you see is our world through the 3DS camera. Of course the 3DS camera is god awful so a lot of players don't even realize their camera is on.

The celestial realm is our realm that is fact and we are the celestial spirit. These lines here are all directly speaking to the player and actually in comparison to their's our world matches perfectly. We don't live in a feudal age where people basically struggle to make a living, a world plagued by monsters, bandits, thieves, or tyranical warlords conquering nearly every corner of the world. Basically compared to the world in Bravely Default our world is incredibly dull and boring we don't have gods of chaos, magic, while we do have problems its on a much smaller scale. All of these lines Ouroboros said was him speaking directly to the player.

"You mingle with lesser creatures. Feign sentiment. You revel in others' bloodshed, and weep at the death of idols...Has this little charade served to ease your weariness? I shall bring your realm chaos. Hatred, fear, jealousy, corruption, brutality... Excitement."

Which is exactly what we are doing. We are playing with these characters literally role playing as them. We enjoy getting to fight monsters, people, bosses and murder them and feign an emotional sentiment to what is otherwise just a bunch of 0's and 1's. And the reason we do all this is for fun, it's all a game to us.

Anyway why does being against Ouroboros mean she can not be created by him? Edea was created by her father and mother which didn't stop her from rebelling against her father. Airy and her sister clearly have wills of their own they aren't just puppets. She's clearly a mystery they will tackle later since she said she would see us again. That being said is it really hard to believe that Ourboros created Airy and her sister and Airy's sister chose to rebel?

As for the angel that's just suppose to be an ambiguous plot point. Hell it can't be Ringabel's Agnes because he saw his Agnes get murdered by Airy so she wouldn't exist to be sent across time and space. Also this is the stein's gate writer yes it's perfectly feasible for Agnes to have blasted herself across multiple times and spaces OR it could simply be a repeating event, that it's happened again and again. The angel is an Agnes that's really all you need to know the rest is just left to the imagination.
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I've got a quote that embodies you perfectly, but it's seventy-three posts long, has a few massive flowcharts, and lots of Xion-KMA to Me
#46Darkhacker1811(Topic Creator)Posted 8/24/2014 2:47:04 AM
@Hirokey123 (post is too long to quote in full)

A creator is completely different to a parent. A creator can control every aspect of its creation. If ouroboros is the creator of Airy's sister, it makes no sense for her to be opposed to his advent and his plans, because he created her. He created her form, her will, her entire being. This makes it nonsensical for her to oppose him and adopt her own will that conflicts with his, unless she was created to do such. Your comparison to parenthood is poor. Whether Airy has a will of her own or not is more debatable than you might believe. If ouroboros created her and her sister, it would be for him to decide whether or not they have wills, and whether or not their wills can deviate from his own.

"Ambiguity" is just a weak pretence to cover up an obvious plot hole. It was explicitly suggested by both Yulyana and Ringabel that the angel was indeed the Agnes from Ringabel's world, so you can't rule that possibility out so off-handedly. Ringabel saw Edea and Tiz being slain by the creature, but I don't recall hime ever stating that he saw Agnes being killed by the Airy. Plus, the point is that Agnes prayed to the celestial realm, and that her prayers were likely answered. When she arrived as the angel, she was already near death; this was explicitly stated multiple times. You don't have to jump through any logical loop holes to imagine the angel being the Agnes from Ringabel's world.

Regarding your comments regarding our world and how it bores in comparison to game worlds (I'm especially disgusted by the "problems on a much smaller scale" part)...I'm not even going to bother arguing such a silly point.

Regarding the decisions reached by DeRosso, Yulyana and co., my point is that their decision to simply watch the PC's without even warning them that an incredible enemy was deceiving them under the pretence of an ally is absurd. It just shattered my suspension of disbelief. Add on to that the unanimously complicit nature of the PC's and the fact that they act mortified and shocked in the finale, despite having known for some time Airy's true nature, and you get a very hard to believe tale that almost seems forced in its construction of disaster.

I'm not sure how you want me to interpret your justification of Agnes duping herself 1000 times by telling me that the game's written by Stein's Gate's writer. That doesn't really mean anything. All your saying is that I should ignore the plot hole because the game's story was written by someone that's dealt with fictional time loops before. What's interesting is that, given the extent to which the Angel's descent changed both Yulyana's and DeRosso's fates, we don't actually know how things would have played out had she not descended. If there were thousands of instances of Agnes that became angels, then there are presumably thousands of worlds in which the Angel never appeared. Given how large her influence was, would the world's history still have played out similarly enough to lead Agnes, Tiz and Edea on a journey orchestrated by Airy?

Also, you're probably thinking of the DeRosso matter differently to how I am, because I definitely do have to jump through some holes to understand just what was going on there. I understand (and really, I've said this numerous times) that DeRosso transferred his immortality to himself in that moment. I'm asking how he actually did that? If anything, Ch7 proves that he doesn't have the ability to transfer his immortality across to other entities. I just don't see how he did it. How, really, did he send over his immortality to a past instance of himself? Also, at what exact moment? It Couldn't have been before he killed/sealed ouroboros (he needed his immortality to do so), and couldn't have been after (he was dead)...so when, exactly, did he do it?