Playing with canon party? *SPOILERS*

#1crystalfury2406Posted 10/18/2009 12:28:18 PM
I am trying to play with the canon party- Imoen, Khalid, Jaheria, Minsc and Dynaheir.

a. Is this a stupid idea?

b. I gave Khalid a bow, since he's the only one with the proficiency and it would be blasphemy to give Minsc one. Bad idea? (Side note... THAC0 is a premium in this game.)

c. Any other problems I might face with this setup? Jaheria makes a good substitute cleric, and the extra utility from druid spells is nice.

Me: Dwarf fighter, sword and shield
Imoen: Dagger/sword/other pointy object
Khalid: Bow
Jaheria: Healer, spear
Minsc: 2H, gotta take advantage of that wonderful 18/93 strength.
Dynaheir: A dagger, but she's in the back since they were morons and made her an invoker with no defensive spells... >_<
---
80 Prot Warrior - 67 Marks Hunter- 42 Combat Rogue - 65 Blood DK
36 Balance Druid- 15 Enhance Shaman- 10 Destro Lock- 10 Fire Mage- 10 Ret Paladin
#2wirts_leg_Posted 10/18/2009 1:25:03 PM
Playing with the canon party is not a stupid idea at all. It is very well balanced.

Minsc is of course a great warrior. He really rocks with Spider's Bane, which gives him Free Action, so you can spam Webs without worrying about Minsc being caught in them.

Dynaheir is a good mage, but unfortunately since she is an invoker her opposition school is enchantment which means she can't cast Sleep. That is really the only bad thing about Dynaheir. If you have a backup mage, like dualing Imoen to mage, you can still have Sleep that way.

Jaheria is more than sufficient for healing purposes. Healing is best done by potions anyway rather than spells. Divine spells should be used for buffing and disabling. At low levels, a multiclass is only ever one level behind a pure class, so Jaheira really does not suffer at all. She is a good fighter and a good divine caster. Pure divine casters are rather wasteful in BG1. Jaheira's only real weakness is her lack of strength, but that is easily fixed with the gauntlets of ogre power.

Khalid has a reputation of being a bad npc, but he really isn't that bad. He actually does make a better archer than a melee fighter due to his poor strength. Many people tend to think that Kivan and Coran are the best archers, but if you actually sit down and crunch the numbers you will see that Khalid is actually better than them at archery. I always make Khalid my archer.

The number crunching:

Khalid is a pure class fighter. He can therefore get mastery in bows which is a +3 bonus to his THAC0. His 16 Dex gives him a +1 to his ranged THAC0. His net bonus is therefore a +4.

Kivan is a ranger. He is therefore limited to specialization in bows which is only a +1 to his THAC0. His 17 Dex gives him a +2 to his ranged THAC0. His net bonus is therefore a +3.

Coran is a multiclass fighter. He is therefore limited to specialization which is a +1 to THAC0 and also as a multiclass he will be one level behind a pure class which gives him a -1 to THAC0. His 20 Dex gives him a +3 to his ranged THAC0. His net bonus is therefore a +3.

So Khalid actually beats them both slightly. However BG2 nerfs the grandmastery rules, and so if you therefore use Tutu, mastery only gives a +2 bonus to THAC0 instead of the +3 bonus. Even with Tutu though, Khalid is still equal to Kivan and Coran.
#3wirts_leg_Posted 10/18/2009 1:34:33 PM
Can't edit my last post to add some things, so I will add them here:

Giving Dynaheir a dagger, or any melee weapon for that matter, is a bad bad bad bad bad BAD idea. There is never a reason to send a pure mage into melee combat. That is nothing more than a recipe for suicide. Always keep pure mages in the back lines. If you must give her a weapon at all, give her a sling. Personally, I never really give pure mages weapons anyway. They have such a crappy THAC0 and low damage, that having them attack really makes no difference at all.

I also really would not give Imoen a melee weapon either. The only time a thief should be in melee combat is for backstabbing purposes. Imoen is a lousy backstabber due to her poor strength and THAC0. Imoen is far better suited with a bow.

Jaheira can use a spear, but I would recommend a quarterstaff first. You can get a magical quarterstaff from Silke in Beregost very early in the game. You won't find a magical spear until the Cloakwood mines.
#4GateaholicPosted 10/18/2009 3:00:58 PM
SPOILERS:









You can dual dynaheir too if you want a cleric - it will take a while in a full party, but it can be done; in fact I just did on my last game. Just get the tome of understanding from durlag's and the one in BG (Lothander's geas quest - temple of tymora). Do so before she hits level 7 though, or it won't work.

You will need to do the TotSC quests to reactivate her mage spellbook.
#5LatronisPosted 10/18/2009 8:51:24 PM
Playing with the canon party is not a stupid idea at all. It is very well balanced.

If you import to bg2, the story flows better too. I generally don't though since i dislike both Khalid and Minsc as characters(Kivan, Kagain, Shar-Teel or a cleric are my warriors of choice but Both Khalid and Minsc are good fighters).

Dynaheir is a good mage, but unfortunately since she is an invoker her opposition school is enchantment which means she can't cast Sleep. That is really the only bad thing about Dynaheir. If you have a backup mage, like dualing Imoen to mage, you can still have Sleep that way.

Also in BG Conjuration; but conjuration sucks anyways.

Sleep is a fine spell but hardly essential (besides the party unfriendliness that can be worked around) Web is better. Hold Person is Just as effective(clerics get it at lv2, but that's not likely to happen in your party unless you dual dynaheir, for mages it's enchantment so D can't get it anyway) Restricted schools also only mean you can't learn it, lv1 scrolls are cheap as chips and there's plenty around that D can cast it from. Colour Spray is also a riskier but almost as effective sleep. She can also use the sleep wand. And blindness is a better disable for singular scarier foes anyway. It's nice to have but there's so many workarounds available it's hardly even a mark againest her.

Jaheria is more than sufficient for healing purposes. Healing is best done by potions anyway rather than spells. Divine spells should be used for buffing and disabling. At low levels, a multiclass is only ever one level behind a pure class, so Jaheira really does not suffer at all. She is a good fighter and a good divine caster. Pure divine casters are rather wasteful in BG1. Jaheira's only real weakness is her lack of strength, but that is easily fixed with the gauntlets of ogre power.

I disagree.. Clerics can be just as good as fighters in melee(druids not so much but they can still work it), and they have spells to boot! Using pure fighters in melee is a waste!
#6LatronisPosted 10/18/2009 8:51:39 PM
So Khalid actually beats them both slightly. However BG2 nerfs the grandmastery rules, and so if you therefore use Tutu, mastery only gives a +2 bonus to THAC0 instead of the +3 bonus. Even with Tutu though, Khalid is still equal to Kivan and Coran.

However with tutu does come the option of making kivan an archer, which comes with bonuses from the kit, and upto grandmastery in ballistics weapons(which will put him above khalid in both THAC0 and Damage).

Giving Dynaheir a dagger, or any melee weapon for that matter, is a bad bad bad bad bad BAD idea. There is never a reason to send a pure mage into melee combat. That is nothing more than a recipe for suicide. Always keep pure mages in the back lines. If you must give her a weapon at all, give her a sling. Personally, I never really give pure mages weapons anyway. They have such a crappy THAC0 and low damage, that having them attack really makes no difference at all.

Attacking with melee as a pure mage is generally a bad idea. Keeping a melee weapon equipped(w\ profeciency) Does prevent enemies from getting an extra bonus to hit (not that it should ever really happen)

I also really would not give Imoen a melee weapon either. The only time a thief should be in melee combat is for backstabbing purposes. Imoen is a lousy backstabber due to her poor strength and THAC0. Imoen is far better suited with a bow.

Even backstabbing has fair bit of risk associated it, but yes i too would recommend keeping imoen as an archer and treat her as the toolkit.

Jaheira can use a spear, but I would recommend a quarterstaff first. You can get a magical quarterstaff from Silke in Beregost very early in the game. You won't find a magical spear until the Cloakwood mines.

I'd recommend Jah get's a shield, it can help offset her pathetic BG1 Dex. And as a druid she can use the dagger of venom :D
---
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.
It didn't work in Mass Effect... There was just too much foreplay and no sex. - Flo in regards to the Bioware formula.
#7KalesfuryPosted 10/18/2009 11:13:29 PM
So Khalid actually beats them both slightly.
Don't elves get a bonus with longbows (and long swords)?
---
You! What is it that brings you here? Have you come to see first hand the misery you have wrought? Perhaps in death I still hold some shred of use for you.
#8GateaholicPosted 10/18/2009 11:34:39 PM
Yes they do. I've checked and this is implemented, so Coran and Kivan both get another +1 beyond the bonuses Latronis already mentioned. Khalid is a half-elf and half elves do not get this bonus, so the stats above for him are correct.

Kinda changes things though, doesn't it?
#9LatronisPosted 10/19/2009 2:57:10 AM
Well Wirt did all the numbing crunching, i just quoted him since he had covered every point i planned on adding too
---
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.
It didn't work in Mass Effect... There was just too much foreplay and no sex. - Flo in regards to the Bioware formula.
#10MalignantManorPosted 10/19/2009 3:01:47 AM
Coran starts with 3 points in a bows.
+3 mastery, +3 dex, +1 elf, -1 level (+6 thac0, +3 damage)

Khalid +3 mastery, +1 dex (+4 thac), +3 damage)

Kivan +1 spec, +2 dex, +1 elf (+4 thac0, +2 damage)
More topics from this board...
Grandmastery is glorious.BgSoA79/10 2:48PM