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2 years ago#1
New poster here but not a noob to the game or gaming. I'm -heavily- into the lore of the entirety of Nirn.
So...here's where I lay it out; I'm an aspiring author, a year from his first published book, and I just started a replay of Morrowind, reminded of the old days when the magic system was a truly powerful force to be reckoned with if the gamer in question knew it in extreme depth. Game-breaking even, if you truly pushed it. Well, as I built my god-like character and went off to irrevocably break the Main Quest by killing Vivec, I started thinking about the motives of the person involved here(in an RPG sense)....so I began researching Indoril Nerevar and the mystery concerning his death. Originally, I'd planned Vivec's death for twofold reason:
1:-Complete- Imperial dominion of Morrowind as an agent of the Cyrodillic Emperor, long term plans for further Imperial expansion to -all- of Nirn, using Morrowind for its strategic value, and the rulership of the Morrowind province. Its strategic value sets it as a prime location for naval operations.
2: A personal quest for vengeance against the Tribunal for the death of Indoril Nerevar, the character's ancestor. This done under the pretense of both ancestral and genetic memories(a nod to the Assassins Creed games, my other fav game series of all time) clearly remembered by the character long before arrival on Morrowind or the mission assigned to them,
This led to some intense research on how Indoril Nerevar met his end at Red Mountain.(I have plenty of ideas about the Dwemer vanishing and the Heart of Lorkhan itself but that's for later; I'm focused on this right now lol)
As a former military intelligence analyst, my training is finding patterns, trends, and commonalities. So...from my research, these are the "definitive facts" as as much as I can surmise and as free of conjecture/speculation as I can manage; that's for later.
1: Nerevar died at Red Mountain, in the Heart Chamber. Whether from his wounds or foul play is unsure.
2: Dagoth Ur "disappeared" or "fled deeper into the mountain", leaving the Keening, Sunder, and Wraithguard behind.
3: It is NOT CLEAR whether the (pre-demi-godhood)Tribunal made it to the Heart Chamber before or after Nerevar's confrontation with the newly-insane Dagoth Ur, who was in possession of a strange mask that was possible another of the Tools that Kagrenac created, Ur refused to give him the Tools and Nerevar was forced to strike him down. In all the research I have done, short of the in-game lore I will be exploring very shortly, There is no single clear statement that the Tribunal was actually present for that confrontation between Nerevar and Ur, two former friends and comrades-in-arms.
4: It seems clear that the Tribunal were NOT demi-gods/gods when they came down from Red Mountain. Sotha Sil required time to understand the Tools in order to attain their form of divine-level power. HOWEVER...
There is a dispute to this, based on the claim that the Heart changed Ur in such a short time even without the tools as for him to seem mad when Nerevar confronted him. If the Heart were that powerful, it could conceivably have given Sotha Sil the knowledge needed for him to understand the Tools' use before they even left the Mountain. That would support the in-game lore(that I haven't found yet) that suggests Indoril discovered the Tribunal tinkering with the Tools.
That creates a scenario where Nerevar, infuriated that they'd broken the Oath, would have confronted them, leading to his murder at their hands.
But other research indicates that the Tribunal murdered him during a ritual to summon Azura, leading to her damning them and the entire race of Chimer, turning them into Dunmer. This murder would have been a reaction to Nerevar's stance that the Tools should be secreted away and never used in any way, something he'd have seen as profane. --->
(Topic Creator)2 years ago#2
Each of the Tribunal would have been attracted to the prospect of what they saw as godhood, even though it was really a form of demi-godhood(a mortal achieving god-like power and immortality via magical or other means). Sotha Sil would have relished the idea of being a scientist forever, free to study and tinker for all of eternity. Almalexia would have relished the idea of being an immortal ruler of the entire world by the time she was done, as is shown by her seat in Mournehold by the time of the Nerevarine. And Vivec sought a peaceful and isolated home for his Azura-cursed people.
(Coincidentally, my story revolves around a woman seeking god-like power and the eventual rule of all of Nirn...but it actually has nothing to do with Almalexia, except killing that crazy ****** and stealing her kit. That sweet-ass sword for my museum specifically.)
So this leaves us with a few possible scenarios, some a little more "plausible" than others.
1: Nerevar, already injured and trucking on all Man On Fire style, fought with Dagoth Ur and won, but at cost of a mortal wound, although he inflicted on Ur as well(Arthur and Modred anyone?). Ur escaped into the bowels of the mountain with the mask still on his face, leaving him a link to the Heart. But he left behind Wraithguard, Keening, and Sunder. Possibly he wasn't even wearing them, having them in a box for safekeeping(as a loyal friend might do in favor to another loyal friend) or on a table in a lab for examination.
Now at this time, we know from the in-game lore that no-one save Ur and the vanished Dwemer had -any- clue how the Tools worked. So Nerevar certainly wouldn't have known that he needed to put on Wraithguard before attempting to use Keening and Sunder.
Continuing with this idea that Ur had already fled after the battle, Nerevar would have thought to recover the Tools as it was his goal in returning to the Heart Chamber in the first place. Here we have some diverging possibilities. He could have attempted to use the Tools, not knowing to use Wraithguard first. This, given his wounded state, would have killed him quickly. But he would have had to stumble in the lava for no body to have been found. And that would have also likely taken the Tools into the lava with him to his death as he'd be holding them. There is a slim chance he'd have dropped them before he fell, but that seems -very- unlikely given his wounded state. The Tribunal would have returned to find an empty Heart Chamber and no Tools. Or the proximity to the Heart out-and-out killed him, either reducing him to nothingness or imploding and leaving the tools behind for the Tribunal to find or by exploderizing him, lending credence to the thing I read about Keening and Sunder being found embedded in a shield. Of course, the explosion could have also sent them flying into the lava but I'm getting away from the point.
So..there's some possibilities. Another is this:
After Ur fled, the Heart with all its power, began speaking to Indoril and telling him to tap the Heart. That close, it could have told him exactly how to use the Tools, promising they would free him of the pain of his wounds and perhaps even grant him the power to help his people as he wished; divine objects can be awfully devious. Then he tapped the Heart and vanished just as the Dwemer did, ascending to another plane of Reality, leaving the Tribunal to find nothing but the Tools lying near the Heart after Nerevar used them and left.
The Tribunal's "godhood" then was a curse from Azura for already intending to betray their friend Nerevar and her champion, before ever they acted on it by tapping the Heart. Azura's power and influence was/is sufficient enough to have changed the outcome in the moment of their "ascension", either through her own hand or that of another of the Daedra. I could see Sheogorath granting mortals immortality, along with crazy physical shifts and mental disorders. He's a funny guy, that Sheogorath :D
(Topic Creator)2 years ago#3
Another possibilty is that Nerevar chased Ur deeper into the Mountain, the Tribunal arriving in his absence. They would have quickly found the Tools, searching everywhere in hopes that Ur had left them behind. Finding them, Sotha Sil, as a scientist, would invariably begin tinkering with them, with Vivec and Almalexia either watching and learning or....off doing something...hm. She -did- become Vivec's consort later on. By the time Nerevar returned after losing Ur due to his wounds, he found them tinkering about with the Tools and became infuriated, leading to confrontation.
Here's where it diverges.
Sotha Sil was a scientist; he wouldn't have attempted to face the warrior Nerevar in combat. He'd have seen it as suicide.
Almalexia was a warrior-priestess and an accomplished mage. Whether Indoril's wife or not, the lure of godhood is -very- powerful. Her sword is even equal in power to his. She could have killed him and thrown him into the lava after an argument about what to do with the tools that led to a fight. One Indoril likely would have lost due to a man's unwillingness to kill a lover, even if that lover is trying to kill him.
Vivec was a warrior-poet, with little more than an interest in seeing a better world for his people. He -could- have attacked Indorial, but likely wouldn't have done it without Almalexia leader, fearing himself an inferior fighter than the seasoned Indoril and seeking to avoid death at the hands of his friend.
At the time of the Nerevarine, Almalexia is insane and power hungry, looking to dominate as much of Nirn as she can during her long life. She also shows a bipolar willingness to switch sides at the drop of a hat. AND she killed Sotha Sil, showing her willingness to betray lethally.
In short, she seems the best candidate for Indoril's murderer in this scenario. Nerevar might not have even seen it coming; she -was- his wife after all. Who better to stab you in the back than your lover? If I remember correctly(I'll be making my way to Mournehold soon to get this confirmed) she even comes a step shy of admitting that she DID kill Nerevar, but that she felt it necessary given the circumstances and his stubbornness regarding the Tools and what should be done with them.
Sotha Sil and Vivec would have let her do as she wished, not wishing her wrath turned on them. Besides, both of their interests with godhood lay elsewhere.
The final possibility regarding Nerevar's death is this:
When Nerevar arrived in the Heart Chamber, he and his old friend Dagoth Ur spoke, cordially at first, then it became violent when Ur wouldn't give up the Tools, Nerevar brought his superior weapon skills and weapon itself to bear and Ur dropped the Tools to run away, but shoved Nerevar out of the way as he left. The Hortator stumbled and fell into the lava, leaving the the Tribunal to find the Tools waiting for them.
And the variant is if the Tribunal arrived at the same time as Nerevar(although it seems pretty clear in the lore that they weren't) or shortly thereafter. Vivec and Almalexia would have attempted to help Indoril as he struggled with Ur while Sotha Sil provided magical aid. Ur and Nerevar wound one another but Ur manages to escape, as the Tribunal would be focused on Nerevar's wounds. Here, it becomes foggy because two things could have happened.
Either they "put him out of his misery", collected the tools, and then attained godhood either right them or sometime later. Thus betraying him both physically then and morally later, bring on Azura's curse.
(Topic Creator)2 years ago#4
They had already betrayed him morally, conspiring together to collect them Tools and discern their uses, and already had a plan in motion. When Nerevar returned from his pursuits of Ur after the confrontation over the tools, they tell him they want to summon Azura for guidance. Nerevar agrees unconditionally, which leads to his death through the "ritual" they perform where each of the Tribunal uses a different method of poison to kill him. Then they take the tools and leave.
Now....that's all I have right now. I've got a LOT more research to do before I write this story and I'm going to roleplay it as best I can within the limits of the game(which are quite broad even on the console) according to the story I intend to write.
What I'm trying to get at with this(maddeningly long) set of posts is the community's consensus on which one of those events makes the most sense within the timeline that the lore provides and the logical sequence of events that lore provides. I understand there is a great deal of speculation; that is why I laid out so many possibilities. If I was incorrect in anything, feel free to correct me but PLEASE!!! offer the information that contradicts my statements and tell me where to find the reference, either online or in-game. I prefer in-game as that's a pretty good source of cannon, hey?
One a consensus is agreed on, I will pick the best choice for the scenario and go with that for the scene where I describe the death of Indoril Nerevar, who will be of utmost important to the character of my story, given that it drives her to do what she does.
Hope you guys can help! lol
P.S.: I know that was a LOT. But I did a LOT of research and I expect to do a LOT more before I'm done with this project. Hell, I'd love to catch the attention of Bethesda with the story. Maybe I could get my dream game.
Morrowind + AnvilNext Engine + Fable-style(or AC2) influence on the world around you, where people truly react to what you do within the game. Imagine: the FULL magic system of the original Morrowind, the combat and movement systems of the Assassins' Creed series, and the storytelling styles of all 3 combined into one AWESOMESAUCE game.
OMG it would be amazing....I think I'd lose my soul to it. Much like Morrowind has done many times before and likely will much more in the future.
Thanks folks, if you help out lol
(Topic Creator)2 years ago#5
OH YEAH!! I meant to add this as it lend credence to the statement Vivec makes where he says he didn't kill Nerevar himself. Azura also never implicates the Tribunal(or perhaps specifically Vivec himself) in Indoril's death. That is VERY IMPORTANT that she doesn't add that. Anyway, here's the in-game blurb. I'm currently playing, hunting this down myself.
Quote: "Vivec killed him, it says so in the sermons. Take the word corrosponding to the number of the sermon e.g. in sermon 23 take the 23rd word, assemble them all together in order and you will see that Vivec left a secret message to say he killed Nerevar."
Quote: "The Secret of The Lessons. If we take the numbers from sermon 29, use them to take out words from appropriate sermons and put them together, we will get a secret message.
"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this." "
This is the link in case you are interested:
After reading it again I suppose it could be referring to Dumac or Dagoth Ur or Sotha Sil so it might not be Vivec who killed him, it doesn't explicity state it was Vivec.
There is another secret message in the sermons as well:
Quote - "Also, if we take the first letters of all the paragraphs of sermon 36 with the exception of the last one, we will get another secret message.
"FOUL MURDER." End Quote.
Now...this suggests that the Warrior-Poet Vivec would not have challenged Nerevar in a contest of arms.
BUT it could be Vivec trying to leave a clue as to who did it. If it were Dagoth Ur, the text applies easily. However, if it were Almalexia(as I personally suspect because she is the power-hungry type based on her track record)...I can see Vivec spinning it in his Sermons that is was a He instead of a She to deflect possible attention from his fellow Tribunal so as not to upset the plans they shared.
Definitely an important piece of the puzzle. And I do truly think the answer is contained somewhere in the in-game lore. If only I can find it lol
Oh well...it'll just make this playthrough and the possible mod/game it inspires all the more fun to find out one of the greatest mysteries ever put into a video game's world.
(Topic Creator)2 years ago#6
lol I know I keep saying I'm done but it's just got me so curious....
My personal opinion, based on all available information: Almalexia killed Nerevar.
She murdered Sotha Sil; she's willing to betray lethally. Especially to cover up something like the murder of her lover? History here on Earth has shown many examples of the same kind of thing. She is also the consort of Vivec by the time of the Nerevarine, giving her great political power and social awareness. Sotha Sil had already isolated himself, probably in both grief over the loss of his friend, his betrayal, and a desire to study what he'd learned from the Heart and the Tools. So....killing him was easy; no one even knew he was dead until the player finds his chained-up corpse at the very end of the Mournehold main quest. And he was certainly no match for Almalexia in combat; they were supposedly close friends and she could have easily attacked and subdued him when his guard was down. Even if he fought, she was an accomplished sorceress herself as well as a talented swordplayer.
Now how does this relate to Vivec?
Vivec already displayed a willingness to alter the truth by creating his own bible in the form of the Sermons. He could very easily have spun in his hidden messages that the -she- who slew Nerevar was a "he"...especially if said -she- were already courting his favor and affection(she was a famous lover after all), which she would have done to ensure he would maintain their shared secret. He wrote that Nerevar was there to see him stop the moon with the wave of a godly hand, which is blatantly false based on the timeline of the world and events; Vivec wasn't even a god yet when Nerevar died. Also, Vivec likely felt the weight of the curse heaviest of all the Tribunal and well as his betrayal of his friend. He also was very likely aware that Almalexia had murdered Sotha Sil. All of those things, combined with his waning power, would send him hiding, depressed & alone, in his Canton at the city of Vivec.
So....I think that it was she who killed Indoril Nerevar and took the Tools at Red Mountain.
They affected their new "godhood", and left Red Mountain "ascended", just after Nerevar's death. Their transformation came from proximity to the Heart and Sotha Sil understanding what need be done far faster than otherwise possible, with the Heart literally explaining it to him telepathically or by some other means. This would have been the event where Indoril returns from chasing after Ur to find them tinkering with the Tools, only to be assuaged and then killed by his wife, body thrown into the lava. (She -did- have his sword to give the player during the time of the Nerevarine...hm)
A short time after, long enough for Sotha Sil, an accomplished mage, to return to the his lab with the Tools for study. They could have returned within days to become "gods"; the lore even speaks of Sotha Sil coming to the other members of the Tribunal at presenting them with a great vision for Morrowind and beyond. But the timeline for this is very murky and hard to pinpoint in the lore....well, at least as far as I can find anyway.
At any rate, it would have been right after they attained "godhood" as they understood it with their limited mortal minds, whether before they left Red Mountain at the time of Nerevar's death or when they came back to the tap the Heart(provided the 2nd theory I just presented is the correct scenarion) that Azura appeared to them and cursed them and the entire Chimer race, creating the Dunmer(Drizzt Do'Urden ha haha) for betraying Nerevar, both morally and physically.
Azura...she is a whole other topic lol She could have truly cared for Indoril. She could have even had him tap the Heart in the correct way to bring him to her place of Reality, which would have left the Tools behind as well. Ok ok, that one's just a neat idea I -just- had. Would make for a happier ending idea though, that's for sure,
(Topic Creator)2 years ago#7
And my final note on Azura and her curse:
I see the capricious hand of the Daedra in the curse's effects of the Tribunal.
Sotha Sil went insane in search of knowledge -- OCD, Misanthropy, Escapism, Narcissism
Almalexia went insane for power. Her seat at Helseth's court proves that; she was seeking more power and likely had further plans for all of Nirn, hoping to manipulate the Nerevarine into creating some way for her to retain her "godhood" and immortality so as to affect her far-reaching goals, goals a human couldn't achieve in a single lifetime. She also murder Sotha Sil to ensure his silence and that news of one of the Tribunal slowly going insane didn't get out. -- Narcissism, Megalomania, Schizophrenia 2, Manic Depressive Disorder/Bipolar 2, Paranoid Schizophrenia
Vivec went insane from being lost within the space between spaces, the ethereal place between slices of Reality, losing concept of Time. He felt he'd been alive for far longer than he truly had. He was also driven mad by the depression of the artist; he'd betrayed a close friend, covered it up because he'd fallen for his friend's woman, failed in his long-term goal of preserving the Ghostfence, and was losing his power -- Depression, Pathological Liar, Inferiority complex
I've read the DSM IV *sigh* It just showed. Anyway...those are some -serious- mental disorders. Hm. Sounds like Sheogorath was asked to lend a hand, hey? I love that guy :D
2 years ago#8
Four topics under yours.
edit: Also your attempt at psychology is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start debunking it.
For who could ever...?
2 years ago#9
I only skimmed through all that. These are some points that I saw that were wrong.
When Vivec says that he didn't kill Nerevar
What happened to the Dwemer :
The only ones that went insane because of Lorkhan's Heart
The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world.
2 years ago#10
so you're an amateur writer, who loves categorizing fictional characters with psychological conditions based on a few paragraphs of actual information about them, writing a fan fic, asking the morrowind board what your fan fic should be about?
correct me if I'm wrong, but lol
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