Debate: Mongols vs. Huns

#1TheFatCopPosted 9/23/2008 6:48:36 PM
1v1

Style: Random Map
Location: Arabia
Size: Tiny (2 player)
Resources: Standard
Population: 200
Reveal Map: All Visible
Starting Age: Standard
Victory: Standard

Both civilizations are played by experienced players using a flush tactic based upon a 21-24 villager advancement build.

Both players use spearmen, skirmishers, and archers. The mongol player focuses primarily on the archery range units, only making a minimal number of spearmen, whereas the Hun player produces a true variation of units.

Huns:
No houses are needed.

Mongols:
+50% hunting speed.

Both players use these advantages to their utmost effectiveness, meaning that the Mongol player hunts 2 boars, and at least 4 deer.

Who has the advantage? Why?
Assume that neither player advances to the Castle age.
#2chrisprongerPosted 9/23/2008 7:15:32 PM
Very interesting topic. I have always wondered which civ would win under the exact conditions you listed. The test you are conducting helps to determine which is the best civ for rushing (but only up to the start of Castle age). Personally, I think that the Huns are a bit better/quicker for those conditions, although I don't have the proof. I do know that I can get the best Feudal time as the Huns on Arabia out of all of the civs.
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#3TheFatCop(Topic Creator)Posted 9/23/2008 7:25:33 PM
The way I have always perceived the situation is that the Mongols can rush faster, but their rush is significantly more fragile. My Mongols feudal rush hits the Feudal Age at 10:40 with 21 villagers. My Huns feudal rush, however, doesn't hit the Feudal Age until 11:40 with 24 villagers. I find that there isn't a whole lot of difference between my 24 villager Mongol rush and my 21 villager Mongol rush, so i stick to the 21 villager build with Mongols. However, when I try a 21 villager rush as Huns, I find myself with 300 food when it's time to advance, so I stick to the 24 villager rush with Huns. The result is an approximate 2 minute "down time" as the Mongols after I hit Feudal where I'm trying to get some food together and I have to switch my villagers from berries to farms, because I've exhausted all of the deer and boars. My Mongol rush is faster by about 1:00, and I can pump archers and skirmishers from 2 ranges, and spearmen from 1 barracks constantly. My Huns rush is slower, but I can optionally pump men at arms if my opponent is heavy on skirmishers. Also, I often find my micromanagement lax as the Mongols in that I fail to keep up with my population. I often need to build more houses at very bad times. As Huns, I have a more stable rush. I never stop pumping even for a second. But I still can't decide which is better, though, because both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think that all visible definitely helps the Mongols more than it helps the Huns, though, because it contributes to their hunting bonus because they can easily get all 8 deer and both boars, which would in a fog of war map make this more difficult.

If anyone has a 21 villager build for Huns that can pump from 3 buildings and achieve a 10:40 Feudal time, I'd be glad to hear the build order.
#4ilikemilkmmmPosted 9/24/2008 7:38:19 AM
Reveal Map: All Visible

what?

anyway...huns 24 pop should age a few seconds after 11 if you are doing it right.
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#5UnnamedPlayerPosted 9/24/2008 8:28:56 AM
mongols

the only reason they aren't used that much is because getting 4 usable deer on a map like ara is not something to rely on. even then, you can get drushed.
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#6ThEvVhiTeStuFFPosted 9/24/2008 12:42:35 PM
Reveal Map: All Visible

I have to second the wtf here. IMO Random Map should be played on Normal Reveal (and Deathmatch Explored), especially with otherwise competitive settings.

I think that all visible definitely helps the Mongols more than it helps the Huns, though, because it contributes to their hunting bonus because they can easily get all 8 deer and both boars

I think All Visible nerfs Mongols and boosts Huns. It takes away the Mongol Scout LOS bonus and eliminates any benefit to radar housing. Meanwhile Huns have zero LOS disadvantage. I think a good Mongol will generally find his hunts irregardless of map reveal, so this really can only help Huns. I still like Mongols over Huns at these settings, but Huns get more competitive IMHO.
#7TheFatCop(Topic Creator)Posted 9/25/2008 4:16:30 PM
The reason I'm playing on all visible is because I play with my friend at school and it's faster for both of us to play all visible. Also, he prefers that setting.
#8SoloSaintPosted 9/28/2008 7:34:51 PM
That destroys 100% of a strategy.
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#9The Eternal ArkPosted 10/4/2008 4:49:55 AM
you cant play with all visible

this debate is meaningless if you play on all visible.
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#10ScathelokePosted 10/4/2008 7:54:04 AM

Huns. No houses = a ton more wood.

Past the castle age, the mongols might beat them though.

...

All visible is to easy.