Do the Saracens have any major weakness(es)?

#1ChaosSamusPosted 5/31/2009 12:34:14 PM
They have Mamelukes, Excellent cavalry archers, excellent foot archers and none of their other unit varieties carry any great weakness (They don't get knights, but Saracens will still get cavalry superiority due to rigged camels).
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"We, uh figured out how to travel through time at the speed of regular time with plastic bags" - Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse
#2StiphilisPosted 5/31/2009 1:59:21 PM
They can't really hang with Mongols/Huns in Feudal, but they're definitely a powerhouse civilization later on.
#3ChaosSamus(Topic Creator)Posted 5/31/2009 3:33:08 PM
The Feudal Age against 2 specific civilizations? That's hardly a weakness at all.

They get all of the Conquerers additions except for Halberdiers (which Camels can replace entirely) and Eagle Warriors (Which you wouldn't expect them to get anyway).

They get basically everything in the original game except for a few technologies (none of which are major sacrifices) and units that are either expendable or completely eclipsed by their strengths.

The Byzantines are at least missing some major assets (They aren't very good at attacking buildings) whereas Saracens can take down a building with Archers.

Bottom Line: Saracens are rigged.
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"We, uh figured out how to travel through time at the speed of regular time with plastic bags" - Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse
#4SeraphLancePosted 5/31/2009 6:31:12 PM
They get all of the Conquerers additions except for Halberdiers (which Camels can replace entirely)

Camels replace halberdiers? I distinctly recall them costing gold. That's an extremely notable difference. AoE isn't just about strengths and weaknesses -- it's about cost-benefit. If you don't need fast anti-cavalry, camels are a gigantic waste of money. Halberdiers are great because they cost no gold, which makes them insanely cheap, especially for the Saracens, which are already one of the biggest gold drains in the game.

Saracens can crush enemy cavalry, and mamelukes are some off the most broken units in the game, but they don't get any good heavy cavalry, and therefore don't have any cheap method of taking down enemy siege. Sure, they can use countersiege, but saracen armies are expensive as is. I've never found camels to be an effective replacement to paladins in this sense. Mamelukes are okay because of their range and mobility, but it can take substantial micro to pull off, and support archers (undoubtedly a good idea in light of the saracens' lack of heavy cavalry) will make mincemeat out of them. The Saracens also lack crop rotation, which really sucks, and they're missing fast fire ships, one of the best small-scale-combat ships in the game.

Most importantly, they have zero early game bonuses, which really hurts their advancement, and makes them highly susceptible to rushes. Mamelukes are awesome, but what good will they do you if you die (or become so far behind you might as well be dead) from a rush in the feudal age?

Saracens are probably my favorite civilization, but they certainly have their share of weaknesses.
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"If attacked . . . ., always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace."
- L. Ron Hubbard
#5VanhugenPosted 5/31/2009 6:58:52 PM
I haven't played in a long time, but I mowed down a slew of Mamalukes with only a couple dozen Teutonic Knights.

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A quartet of deliverance rides for you Upon this night, nothing you can do...
#6StiphilisPosted 6/1/2009 1:31:26 PM
Bottom Line: Saracens are rigged.

If that were the case, they would have won tournaments. They're generally not even *used* in tournament play.

It's better to be mediocre in Imperial than it is to be mediocre in Feudal. By the time Imperial has rolled around, you've had three ages to win (or lose) in already. It's the most inconsequential age in high-level play.
#7ChaosSamus(Topic Creator)Posted 6/1/2009 7:37:47 PM
Hmm, all decent points. I never considered that almost all of the Saracens' use was in the Imperial Age. I guess I'm just really bad at finishing up RTS games quickly. I will consider all of this advice in future games (especially against my 2 friends that use Saracens).
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"We, uh figured out how to travel through time at the speed of regular time with plastic bags" - Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse
#8StiphilisPosted 6/2/2009 1:38:38 PM
Good stuff.

Alright, well I'll advise you to read a few generic articles:

http://mrfixitonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=925
http://www.salamyhkaiset.org/aoe2/step_1_-_introduction

Then something like this:

http://mrfixitonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=2551

Then start digging up top-level recorded games if you want to be really good. The first few articles are enough to beat your friends.
#9SeraphLancePosted 6/2/2009 3:14:55 PM
I haven't played in a long time, but I mowed down a slew of Mamalukes with only a couple dozen Teutonic Knights.

Then the Saracen player is an idiot. Trebuchets can kite teutonic knights for chrissakes. Teutonic Knights are basically siege weapons. Anything with a range attack, and sufficient micro, will kill them. They're simply too slow to give chase.

I'm not decrying their use, mind you, but that situation should not have happened.
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"If attacked . . . ., always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace."
- L. Ron Hubbard
#10VanhugenPosted 6/2/2009 3:49:45 PM
I know it shouldn't have. I was totally obliterated and that group of knights was all I had left. No villagers or anything. The guy I was fighting kept sending in Mamelukes and kept getting slaughtered. I eventually lost, but it was pretty funny. I wish I had recorded it.

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A quartet of deliverance rides for you Upon this night, nothing you can do...