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Is TF2 Pay 2 Win?

#31JavelinPosted 8/22/2013 1:01:05 PM
DaedalusEx posted...
xanthan1 posted...
Sidegrade=/=better. Nothing you can get it just better then stock, they all have downsides of some kind, stop talking out your ass.


Situations favor different items, should a player find himself in a situation that favors a "sidegrade" he is at an advantage over someone using a stock item. The sidegrade, in this case, would be the better item, and since it can be obtained with money and grant an advantage over players who have not spent money, it must be concluded that the game is pay to win.


Situations favor different items. Should a player find himself in a situation that favors a stock item, he is at an advantage over someone using a sidegrade item. The sidegrade, in this case, would be the worse item, and even though it can be obtained with money, it actually presents a disadvantage compared to players who have not spent money. It must be concluded that the game is not pay-to-win.
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#32old_school227Posted 8/22/2013 1:08:49 PM
DaedalusEx posted...
xanthan1 posted...
Except pay to win means a straight upgrade, not a situational one. Pay to win=/="Better but only if". Pay to win="Always better".


That is an arbitrary definition of pay to win. If paying money can grant any advantage, no matter how small, over players who have not spent money, and thus influence the outcome of a game... it must be said that it is pay to win.

The TF2 model is a lot tamer than most, and not really worth criticizing... but it is pay to win nonetheless


Except that gun you paid for is worse than the stock gun in some situations, so by your definition the game is also pay to lose.
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#33StarskiRPosted 8/22/2013 1:15:21 PM
Javelin posted...
DaedalusEx posted...
xanthan1 posted...
Sidegrade=/=better. Nothing you can get it just better then stock, they all have downsides of some kind, stop talking out your ass.


Situations favor different items, should a player find himself in a situation that favors a "sidegrade" he is at an advantage over someone using a stock item. The sidegrade, in this case, would be the better item, and since it can be obtained with money and grant an advantage over players who have not spent money, it must be concluded that the game is pay to win.


Situations favor different items. Should a player find himself in a situation that favors a stock item, he is at an advantage over someone using a sidegrade item. The sidegrade, in this case, would be the worse item, and even though it can be obtained with money, it actually presents a disadvantage compared to players who have not spent money. It must be concluded that the game is not pay-to-win.


Logic doesn't work that way. The person who has the sidegrade still has the option for the stock. The person with only stock, does not have the option for sidegrade.

There is a wall there, like one other person said, about a $5 pay wall, but a wall none the less. There is a large portion of the gaming community that will never buy beyond the default game, they will always be at a disadvantage. Not a huge disadvantage though.
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#34xanthan1Posted 8/22/2013 1:16:59 PM
StarskiR posted...
Javelin posted...
DaedalusEx posted...
xanthan1 posted...
Sidegrade=/=better. Nothing you can get it just better then stock, they all have downsides of some kind, stop talking out your ass.


Situations favor different items, should a player find himself in a situation that favors a "sidegrade" he is at an advantage over someone using a stock item. The sidegrade, in this case, would be the better item, and since it can be obtained with money and grant an advantage over players who have not spent money, it must be concluded that the game is pay to win.


Situations favor different items. Should a player find himself in a situation that favors a stock item, he is at an advantage over someone using a sidegrade item. The sidegrade, in this case, would be the worse item, and even though it can be obtained with money, it actually presents a disadvantage compared to players who have not spent money. It must be concluded that the game is not pay-to-win.


Logic doesn't work that way. The person who has the sidegrade still has the option for the stock. The person with only stock, does not have the option for sidegrade.

There is a wall there, like one other person said, about a $5 pay wall, but a wall none the less. There is a large portion of the gaming community that will never buy beyond the default game, they will always be at a disadvantage. Not a huge disadvantage though.


You forgot the part where they can get the weapons from random drops, crafting, and for some of the older ones, achievements.
#35happyscrub1Posted 8/22/2013 2:01:47 PM(edited)
EVERY item is a sidegrade. Anyone that says otherwise is a troll.

The only advantage you can get wtih items is set bonuses which are a direct upgrade.
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#36CatToyPosted 8/22/2013 2:08:46 PM(edited)
Set bonuses don't exist anymore.

Not every item is a well balance alternative.

However TF2 is in a far better state after the previous patch than it was before.
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#37blade6321Posted 8/22/2013 2:22:02 PM
happyscrub1 posted...
EVERY item is a sidegrade. Anyone that says otherwise is a troll.

The only advantage you can get wtih items is set bonuses which are a direct upgrade.


Medic stock melee has several straight upgrades.

But overall the game is really not an issue in terms of balancing.

Play the game for 2-3 days for a few hours, and you can have every 'good' weapon pretty much. Everything else is just more stuff to play around with- nice- but you're at little or no disadvantage.
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#38SmoboHashPosted 8/22/2013 2:28:33 PM
happyscrub1 posted...
EVERY item is a sidegrade. Anyone that says otherwise is a troll.


pls point out the downside to this weapon

http://tf2b.com/tf2/item/smobo/812117419

TF2 is a pay to win scam. Don't even bother with it.
#39CatToyPosted 8/22/2013 2:31:17 PM
SmoboHash posted...
pls point out the downside to this weapon

http://tf2b.com/tf2/item/smobo/812117419

TF2 is a pay to win scam. Don't even bother with it.


Downside is that it's not an Ubersaw, Amputator, or Vita-Saw. Medic is not a class that needs care about enemy health.
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#40MagnemightPosted 8/22/2013 4:39:10 PM
CatToy posted...
SmoboHash posted...
pls point out the downside to this weapon

http://tf2b.com/tf2/item/smobo/812117419

TF2 is a pay to win scam. Don't even bother with it.


Downside is that it's not an Ubersaw, Amputator, or Vita-Saw. Medic is not a class that needs care about enemy health.


Indeed. The stock Bonesaw is inferior to nearly every other melee weapon the Medic has access to, but a Medic, especially an inexperienced Medic, should never be melee-attacking enemies.. You exist to build Ubercharges and keep your team alive; if you put yourself in danger by attempting to kill enemies, you're potentially hurting your entire team by depriving them of health and whatever Ubercharge you've already built up.

If anything, the downside of the Solemn Vow is causing the player to be tempted to chase after fleeing low-health enemies, which will (in the case of the enemy team being equal in skill with the Medic) result in the Medic being killed.

Nearly every stock weapon is fantastic for teaching a new player how to play a class, and one gets new weapons so frequently that, by the time one learns the basics of the classes, one should have plenty of new weapons to try out.
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