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Are we finally going to ditch D3D?

#1AsellusPosted 10/9/2013 5:57:51 AM
According to Nvidia's Mark Smith, senior technical evangelist for Nvidia, the company has had its engineered embedded deep within Valve's walls for some time now to help and assist with the development of SteamOS. The work of these nVidia employees includes improving OpenGL performance, and optimizing overall performance for Nvidia graphics cards on SteamOS systems. The engineers also helped Valve to port the Source engine to Linux and reduce input lag in SteamOS.

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/17663/article/nvidia-announces-collaboration-with-valve-on-steamos/

No surprises there, Valve wants to move away from Windows and nVidia's advantage in OpenGL on Linux is pretty well known. Still though this was a bit of a surprise-

Relative Games ‏@relativegames 5 Oct

@ID_AA_Carmack What do you think of the Mantle API claims, 9x more draw calls, 2018-like hardware today, is it realistic ?
Details

John CarmackVerified account ‏@ID_AA_Carmack

@relativegames 9x draw calls is credible over stock D3D, but Nvidia OpenGL extensions can give similar Improcements.

-- https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/386899206163554304

... seriously? And without even requiring a proprietary api to enable that? (Yes, extensions are vendor specific but they often become incorporated in the api proper in future versions if they're popular / useful.)

The funny thing? Even AMD seems to be saying the same thing.

"My mission is to expose the GPU as #OpenGL extentions. If you can't get close to peak theoretical performance I have failed.

I'm saying that for a modern OpenGL application the API won't be the bottleneck. You'll hit the hardware's limits first"


http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amd-aims-to-give-opengl-a-big-boost-api-wont-be-the-bottleneck/
#2AMDZFanPosted 10/9/2013 6:19:15 AM
I, for one, am glad to see the move from D3D. OpenGL will allow more games to go to Mac and Linux which is better for everyone. It might also pressure all of OS vendors into taking gaming seriously now that such a nice slice of pie is up for grabs. (Before everyone knew how valuable gaming was but it just didn't look like there was a chance to get it from Microsoft due to vendor lock-in, aka DirectX)

Now that said, I'm really surprised that Carmack said "What do you think of the Mantle API claims, 9x more draw calls, 2018-like hardware today, is it realistic ?" Honestly, that really does NOT sound like a game developer. That sounds like a 15 year old kid who hasn't a clue about how any part of the programming part of a game works at all.

Mantle making "9x more draw calls" means that the GPU will be better utilized. NOT that this will make GPUs ridiculously powerful. I'd expect no more than a 50% increase in performance and that's really pushing it.
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#3Asellus(Topic Creator)Posted 10/9/2013 6:33:16 AM
Now that said, I'm really surprised that Carmack said "What do you think of the Mantle API claims, 9x more draw calls, 2018-like hardware today, is it realistic ?" Honestly, that really does NOT sound like a game developer. That sounds like a 15 year old kid who hasn't a clue about how any part of the programming part of a game works at all.

That's not Carmack, that's the guy asking him a question Twitter.
#4DV8ingSourcesPosted 10/9/2013 6:40:11 AM
Asellus posted...
Now that said, I'm really surprised that Carmack said "What do you think of the Mantle API claims, 9x more draw calls, 2018-like hardware today, is it realistic ?" Honestly, that really does NOT sound like a game developer. That sounds like a 15 year old kid who hasn't a clue about how any part of the programming part of a game works at all.

That's not Carmack, that's the guy asking him a question Twitter.


I lol'd.

I sure hope openGL takes off with all developers. I have windows 8 so the 11.2 dx update isn't an issue but I see no reason that it couldn't be implemented into older versions of windows. If this is the route MS is taking, its time to knock them off the horse entirely. The only issue I see moving forward if this takes off is backwards compatibility. Maybe we can get some kind of workaround in linux for directx games. Microsoft wouldn't take kindly to it but I'm sure something could be figured out.
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#5Asellus(Topic Creator)Posted 10/9/2013 7:13:36 AM
The only issue I see moving forward if this takes off is backwards compatibility. Maybe we can get some kind of workaround in linux for directx games. Microsoft wouldn't take kindly to it but I'm sure something could be figured out.

Valve's apparently using a D3D > OGL wrapper they've been working on for their Source engine games on Max / Linux. They can certainly keep improving it so it works with more games, work with publishers / developers to certify them as "Linux compatible" (I doubt they'd have much trouble here, particularly if they're willing to do if most of the work), wash and repeat.

Keeping to the subject I remember Carmack suggesting some months ago that'd probably the best way to go there.

I truly do feel that emulation of some sort is a proper technical direction for gaming on Linux. It is obviously pragmatic in the range of possible support, but it shouldn’t have the technical stigma that it does. There really isn’t much of anything special that a native port does – we still make OpenGL calls, winsock is just BSD sockets, windows threads become pthreads, and the translation of input and audio interfaces don’t make much difference (XInput and Xaudio2 are good APIs!). A good shim layer should have far less impact on performance than the variability in driver quality.

Translating from D3D to OpenGL would involve more inefficiencies, but figuring out exactly what the difficulties are and making some form of “D3D interop” extension for OpenGL to smooth it out is a lot easier than making dozens of completely refactored, high performance native ports.

Ideally, following a set of best practice guidelines could allow developers to get Linux versions with little more effort than supporting, say, Windows XP.

Properly evangelized, with Steam as a monetized distribution platform, this is a plausible path forward.

-- http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/c89sfto
#6SinisterSlayPosted 10/9/2013 7:25:31 AM
I hope we are switching.
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#7DV8ingSourcesPosted 10/9/2013 7:27:00 AM
Asellus posted...
stuff


Not worried about the technical side... just the legality of it all and how MS would pursue such legalities.
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#8Rexdragon125Posted 10/9/2013 7:51:11 AM
Like typical FOSS OpenGL they don't care about usability and it's a pain to work with compared to Direct3D. I don't care if OpenGL saves a few nanoseconds of rendering time, Direct3D saves me hours of developer time.
#9Asellus(Topic Creator)Posted 10/9/2013 8:17:27 AM
Like typical FOSS OpenGL they don't care about usability and it's a pain to work with compared to Direct3D. I don't care if OpenGL saves a few nanoseconds of rendering time, Direct3D saves me hours of developer time.

But what if you want to do Mac / Linux / iOS / Android versions of your title? You need to use OpenGL for those and given that there's no reason you can't use OGL on Windows why bother with D3D at all?

(Especially if AMD's serious about improving the quality of their OpenGL drivers)
https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2013/09/26/dolphin-emulator-and-opengl-drivers-hall-fameshame/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co

There's certainly a networking effect here that has and still promulgates D3D, the more people use it the more the hardware vendors focus most of their efforts on its drivers, the better documented the api becomes, etc. but honestly I think it's looking more vulnerable at the moment than I can ever remember. Between the lack luster reception of Windows 8, Microsoft's insistence on tying access to newer DX versions to OS updates (11.1 to Win 8 and now 11.2 to Win 8.1), and a burgeoning and always increasingly capable tablet / phone market that DirectX has no part of whatsoever.
#10SinisterSlayPosted 10/9/2013 8:27:40 AM
Asellus posted...
Like typical FOSS OpenGL they don't care about usability and it's a pain to work with compared to Direct3D. I don't care if OpenGL saves a few nanoseconds of rendering time, Direct3D saves me hours of developer time.

But what if you want to do Mac / Linux / iOS / Android versions of your title? You need to use OpenGL for those and given that there's no reason you can't use OGL on Windows why bother with D3D at all?

(Especially if AMD's serious about improving the quality of their OpenGL drivers)
https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2013/09/26/dolphin-emulator-and-opengl-drivers-hall-fameshame/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co

There's certainly a networking effect here that has and still promulgates D3D, the more people use it the more the hardware vendors focus most of their efforts on its drivers, the better documented the api becomes, etc. but honestly I think it's looking more vulnerable at the moment than I can ever remember. Between the lack luster reception of Windows 8, Microsoft's insistence on tying access to newer DX versions to OS updates (11.1 to Win 8 and now 11.2 to Win 8.1), and a burgeoning and always increasingly capable tablet / phone market that DirectX has no part of whatsoever.


That link is pretty interesting.

Further proof everyone should use nVidia processors in their mobile devices.
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