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Are we finally going to ditch D3D?

#21Asellus(Topic Creator)Posted 10/9/2013 12:40:09 PM
I doubt D3D will go anywhere just as long as MS keeps updating it every once in a while.

Even if they keep tying every little update to require a new version of Windows? Look at it from a developer's perspective, what's the point of adding in support for dx 11.2 features if the only people who'll get any use out of them are the subset of your customers running Windows 8.1?

Particularly when you could just use OpenGL and be able to offer the same features to *all* of your customers with capable hardware and be able to sell your game on platforms that aren't Windows as well?

OpenGL could always support low-level, hardware specific extensions

Could? It does. Always has. OGL extentions (and the ability to add features to it on the fly without requiring a new version of the api and the approval of Microsoft) have always been one of its principle differences from D3D.

and iirc glide was based on OpenGL.

A bit of a segue there.

Sort of - Glide was kind of OGL like in that it was written by people who were familiar with OpenGL and used it as a rough model for what their api would look like. It wasn't a direct offshoot of OpenGL however (and in fact 3dfx OGL support always kind of sucked, they didn't even have a full driver until Quake 3 was released and Carmack refused to allow them to keep using their MiniGL wrapper with it).

The problem is simply that hardware manufacturers and devs didn't work together to implement those extensions.

Not really sure what you mean here.. Virtually every OGL game out there uses extentions. The argument against extentions has always been that they muddle the api, not that they aren't out there or they're hard to use.

Mantle is different in that it is apparently also AMD's low level API for game development on consoles. So given the multiplatform nature of all AAA engines we're likely to see Mantle succeed on PC

Even AMD is saying you can get a similar level of optimization using modern OGL+extentions as you'll be able to get using Mantle.
#22KamenRiderBladePosted 10/9/2013 12:48:47 PM
D3D is not going to go anywhere.

One of the reasons D3D took off and remains where it is, is because of the dominance of the MS OS in the desktop space.

Most everybody who games really needs to have a Windows machine.

Ergo D3D.

You want universal compatibility without having to write specialized code paths for video cards, D3D.

If you choose not to have specialized code paths, D3D is the way to go.

OpenGL is great, but the OpenGL standards group is slow in updating their standards / features / libraries compared to MS, that along with proper driver support from AMD / Nvidia is what hampers acceptance of OpenGL

Mantle coming into play won't help the OpenGL cause, in fact it's going to split development into the Mantle / Console development camp, and should Mantle start supporting older AMD GPU's and Nvidia GPU's, it could effectively start gaining a foothold into the PC gaming graphical API space.

That being said, D3D will not be going away anytime soon.

There is a Chicken / Egg problem with Mantle at the moment, so until that part is solved, don't hold your breath.

Having 1 engine "Frostbite" supporting Mantle is one thing, getting all the other major engine developers to support Mantle is a whole different thing.
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#23Bazooka_PenguinPosted 10/9/2013 1:33:21 PM
Asellus posted...
Even if they keep tying every little update to require a new version of Windows?

It's been this way from the start. Game developers simply supported the most popular version at a given time.


Asellus posted...

Sort of - Glide was kind of OGL like in that it was written by people who were familiar with OpenGL and used it as a rough model for what their api would look like. It wasn't a direct offshoot of OpenGL however (and in fact 3dfx OGL support always kind of sucked, they didn't even have a full driver until Quake 3 was released and Carmack refused to allow them to keep using their MiniGL wrapper with it).

"http://www.wordiq.com/definition/QuickDraw_3D"
In order to address the later issue, the Glide API, a subset of OpenGL, was developed for use on the Voodoo series of 3D cards.
It was based on OpenGL.

Asellus posted...
Not really sure what you mean here.. Virtually every OGL game out there uses extentions. The argument against extentions has always been that they muddle the api, not that they aren't out there or they're hard to use.

List the games that have implemented low-level hardware-specific OpenGL extensions created by AMD or Nvidia.


Asellus posted...

Even AMD is saying you can get a similar level of optimization using modern OGL+extentions as you'll be able to get using Mantle

That literally has nothing to do with what I said. Most of your responses don't even relate to what I said. I never said anything about Mantle having better performance, I said Mantle is in a better position to succeed because it's supposedly the same API AMD offered for console developers, hence helping its proliferation in the industry. OpenGL, despite supposed potential performance advantages, has failed completely against DirectX. Even Carmack said DX11 was better than OpenGL (ver 4.1 at the time:early 2011).
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#24Bazooka_PenguinPosted 10/9/2013 1:40:55 PM
KamenRiderBlade posted...


There is a Chicken / Egg problem with Mantle at the moment, so until that part is solved, don't hold your breath.

Having 1 engine "Frostbite" supporting Mantle is one thing, getting all the other major engine developers to support Mantle is a whole different thing.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1431036/ggpu-more-game-engines-will-support-mantle

Activision's head technical director already said they would have to support Mantle.
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#25JKatarnPosted 10/9/2013 3:50:22 PM
DV8ingSources posted...
JKatarn posted...
You mean you place more credence in the opinion of the man who created the Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Quake 1-3 and Doom III engines (yeah, not the technical names, but you get the point) than some random "developer" on GameFAQs?


Yeah pretty much. I've sat through his sometimes multiple hour lectures, barely understanding what he was saying and still enjoying myself. The guy is practically a prodigy when it comes to understanding technology. He's also the main reason I see the oculus rift and other similar devices becoming the norm in the future. His research and development in the smallest of details will go a long way. Oh and he's a rocket scientist, literally.


Yeah, lol, I was being sarcastic (I think you realized this, just making sure). Carmack is a fount of 3D graphics programming knowledge (and programming in general). I love how he assumes that anyone who interviews him understands 1/10th of what he is saying, and they kind of just nod and slowly glaze over, the man eats, sleeps and breathes programming.
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#26lionheart5656Posted 10/9/2013 4:09:06 PM
DV8ingSources posted...
Asellus posted...
Now that said, I'm really surprised that Carmack said "What do you think of the Mantle API claims, 9x more draw calls, 2018-like hardware today, is it realistic ?" Honestly, that really does NOT sound like a game developer. That sounds like a 15 year old kid who hasn't a clue about how any part of the programming part of a game works at all.

That's not Carmack, that's the guy asking him a question Twitter.


I lol'd.

I sure hope openGL takes off with all developers. I have windows 8 so the 11.2 dx update isn't an issue but I see no reason that it couldn't be implemented into older versions of windows. If this is the route MS is taking, its time to knock them off the horse entirely. The only issue I see moving forward if this takes off is backwards compatibility. Maybe we can get some kind of workaround in linux for directx games. Microsoft wouldn't take kindly to it but I'm sure something could be figured out.


You sound surprised.

This is the route Microsoft has always taken from day 1 of its existence.

Create need by blocking out competition.

Keeps costs down and quality to a bare minimum.
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