This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Next-Gen Console CPU power "roughly one quarter" of the i5-3570k

#111337toothbrushPosted 10/23/2013 2:51:54 PM
SinisterSlay posted...
We can probably say 3/4 of current processors go towards code inefficiencies anyways.
This is one time when console optimization is a real thing. They know how many processors they have and how fast they can go. They can load balance perfectly.


You can query the platform to get the number of cores. You do not need to know this at compile time. So no, consoles do not have an advantage here. When using the CPU, all you really need to do is avoid expensive calls (e.g. OS calls) in intensive tight loops. The resource usage of the OS is greatly exaggerated by console fanboys. The GPU has more abstraction on PC, but it's really not enough to give consoles a huge advantage, especially with extensions such as bindless textures. This round of next-gen consoles is the weakest yet in terms of performance and I wouldn't be surprised if APUs come out within a year that are as powerful or more powerful, especially since this is the type of technology in the next-gen consoles. APUs are the new low-end.
---
------------
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/hobo2/MantisShrimp_zpsf052614e.jpg
#12SinisterSlayPosted 10/23/2013 2:59:11 PM(edited)
1337toothbrush posted...
SinisterSlay posted...
We can probably say 3/4 of current processors go towards code inefficiencies anyways.
This is one time when console optimization is a real thing. They know how many processors they have and how fast they can go. They can load balance perfectly.


You can query the platform to get the number of cores. You do not need to know this at compile time. So no, consoles do not have an advantage here. When using the CPU, all you really need to do is avoid expensive calls (e.g. OS calls) in intensive tight loops. The resource usage of the OS is greatly exaggerated by console fanboys. The GPU has more abstraction on PC, but it's really not enough to give consoles a huge advantage, especially with extensions such as bindless textures. This round of next-gen consoles is the weakest yet in terms of performance and I wouldn't be surprised if APUs come out within a year that are as powerful or more powerful, especially since this is the type of technology in the next-gen consoles. APUs are the new low-end.


I seem to have forgotten to edit this one.....


Here you go

SinisterSlay posted...
We can probably say 3/4 of current processors go towards code inefficiencies anyways.
This is one time when console optimization is a real thing. They know how many processors they have and how fast they can go. They can load balance perfectly.

Windows makes this even harder on devs.

Say you spawn 8 threads.
You have no guarantee each thread will get it's own processor.
Windows might think that 7th and 8th thread aren't doing much, and decide to run them on core 6 and park core 7 and 8.
Then the game stutters because its expecting 8 threads running together, not 5 threads together and 3 threads task switching with each other.


So far, I haven't seen how to tell a thread or process to only execute on one core. But I mostly code GUI stuff. So the problem has never really come up.
But if it's possible, I have to wonder how hard would it be to make your rendering threads work with any number of cores since you could be running on a dual core and then have only 2 threads, or could be running some fancy processor with 64 cores and need 64 rendering threads.
What I am guessing will happen is all games will now have 6 threads for rendering (or game and rendering) so that they work on the console, and damn the PC if your system only has 4 cores and can't task switch fast enough.
---
He who stumbles around in darkness with a stick is blind. But he who... sticks out in darkness... is... fluorescent! - Brother Silence
#13mrCubePosted 10/23/2013 3:50:23 PM
1337toothbrush posted...
SinisterSlay posted...
We can probably say 3/4 of current processors go towards code inefficiencies anyways.
This is one time when console optimization is a real thing. They know how many processors they have and how fast they can go. They can load balance perfectly.


You can query the platform to get the number of cores. You do not need to know this at compile time. So no, consoles do not have an advantage here. When using the CPU, all you really need to do is avoid expensive calls (e.g. OS calls) in intensive tight loops. The resource usage of the OS is greatly exaggerated by console fanboys. The GPU has more abstraction on PC, but it's really not enough to give consoles a huge advantage, especially with extensions such as bindless textures. This round of next-gen consoles is the weakest yet in terms of performance and I wouldn't be surprised if APUs come out within a year that are as powerful or more powerful, especially since this is the type of technology in the next-gen consoles. APUs are the new low-end.


Uh, yeah, knowing your exact hardware configuration while you're writing the program is definitely an advantage for the consoles.

Your whole post just oozes "enough understand to sound like I know what I'm talking about but not any actual working knowledge"
---
---
#141337toothbrushPosted 10/23/2013 3:58:09 PM
SinisterSlay posted...
1337toothbrush posted...
SinisterSlay posted...
We can probably say 3/4 of current processors go towards code inefficiencies anyways.
This is one time when console optimization is a real thing. They know how many processors they have and how fast they can go. They can load balance perfectly.


You can query the platform to get the number of cores. You do not need to know this at compile time. So no, consoles do not have an advantage here. When using the CPU, all you really need to do is avoid expensive calls (e.g. OS calls) in intensive tight loops. The resource usage of the OS is greatly exaggerated by console fanboys. The GPU has more abstraction on PC, but it's really not enough to give consoles a huge advantage, especially with extensions such as bindless textures. This round of next-gen consoles is the weakest yet in terms of performance and I wouldn't be surprised if APUs come out within a year that are as powerful or more powerful, especially since this is the type of technology in the next-gen consoles. APUs are the new low-end.


I seem to have forgotten to edit this one.....


Here you go

SinisterSlay posted...
We can probably say 3/4 of current processors go towards code inefficiencies anyways.
This is one time when console optimization is a real thing. They know how many processors they have and how fast they can go. They can load balance perfectly.

Windows makes this even harder on devs.

Say you spawn 8 threads.
You have no guarantee each thread will get it's own processor.
Windows might think that 7th and 8th thread aren't doing much, and decide to run them on core 6 and park core 7 and 8.
Then the game stutters because its expecting 8 threads running together, not 5 threads together and 3 threads task switching with each other.


So far, I haven't seen how to tell a thread or process to only execute on one core. But I mostly code GUI stuff. So the problem has never really come up.
But if it's possible, I have to wonder how hard would it be to make your rendering threads work with any number of cores since you could be running on a dual core and then have only 2 threads, or could be running some fancy processor with 64 cores and need 64 rendering threads.
What I am guessing will happen is all games will now have 6 threads for rendering (or game and rendering) so that they work on the console, and damn the PC if your system only has 4 cores and can't task switch fast enough.


From what I've observed, that hasn't been much of an issue. What's especially absurd is you saying 3/4 of the processor goes to code inefficiencies. Perhaps in a poorly-designed application written in a sloppy interpreted language, but any proper game studio would know how to better utilize the CPU.
---
------------
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/hobo2/MantisShrimp_zpsf052614e.jpg
#151337toothbrushPosted 10/23/2013 9:01:35 PM(edited)
mrCube posted...
1337toothbrush posted...
SinisterSlay posted...
We can probably say 3/4 of current processors go towards code inefficiencies anyways.
This is one time when console optimization is a real thing. They know how many processors they have and how fast they can go. They can load balance perfectly.


You can query the platform to get the number of cores. You do not need to know this at compile time. So no, consoles do not have an advantage here. When using the CPU, all you really need to do is avoid expensive calls (e.g. OS calls) in intensive tight loops. The resource usage of the OS is greatly exaggerated by console fanboys. The GPU has more abstraction on PC, but it's really not enough to give consoles a huge advantage, especially with extensions such as bindless textures. This round of next-gen consoles is the weakest yet in terms of performance and I wouldn't be surprised if APUs come out within a year that are as powerful or more powerful, especially since this is the type of technology in the next-gen consoles. APUs are the new low-end.


Uh, yeah, knowing your exact hardware configuration while you're writing the program is definitely an advantage for the consoles.

Your whole post just oozes "enough understand to sound like I know what I'm talking about but not any actual working knowledge"


Uh, the advantage, if there is one, is so small that it doesn't matter. The Xbox 360 was the most advanced that console hardware had ever been compared to PCs at the time and that was still thoroughly beaten by PC hardware one year after release with a core 2 duo and 8800GT. The original Crysis runs far better on that hardware than on the Xbox 360. Most current-gen console games are 720p or less. That's a laughable resolution. These next-gen consoles are comparatively weaker, are beaten before they have even come out, and will be beaten by APUs within a year.
---
------------
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/hobo2/MantisShrimp_zpsf052614e.jpg
#16The cranky hermitPosted 10/23/2013 9:40:41 PM(edited)
Uh, yeah, knowing your exact hardware configuration while you're writing the program is definitely an advantage for the consoles.
Your whole post just oozes "enough understand to sound like I know what I'm talking about but not any actual working knowledge"

No, it's actually your post that shows a complete lack of working knowledge. The whole "knowing your exact hardware configuration" is a widely repeated myth among gamers who have no idea how programming actually works, but it's easily debunked by anyone who does. Nobody codes at the hardware level any more, not even on consoles. It simply isn't practical, and hasn't been since the PS1.

Having a fixed hardware configuration can help the COMPILER make low-level optimizations that aren't possible on PC, but that doesn't come in to play while "writing the program." It also does nothing to compensate for a weak GPU, and nearly all multiplatform games are primarily GPU dependent.
---
http://thecrankyhermit.wikispaces.com/
Year-by-year analysis of the finest gaming has to offer, and (eventually) more!
#17DiehardFFv2Posted 10/23/2013 9:50:54 PM
The cranky hermit posted...
Uh, yeah, knowing your exact hardware configuration while you're writing the program is definitely an advantage for the consoles.
Your whole post just oozes "enough understand to sound like I know what I'm talking about but not any actual working knowledge"

No, it's actually your post that shows a complete lack of working knowledge. The whole "knowing your exact hardware configuration" is a widely repeated myth among gamers who have no idea how programming actually works, but it's easily debunked by anyone who does. Nobody codes at the hardware level any more, not even on consoles. It simply isn't practical, and hasn't been since the PS1.

Having a fixed hardware configuration can help the COMPILER make low-level optimizations that aren't possible on PC, but that doesn't come in to play while "writing the program." It also does nothing to compensate for a weak GPU, and nearly all multiplatform games are primarily GPU dependent.


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Kelso-Says-Burn-That-70s-Show.gif
---
Intel i5 3570k | Sapphire r9 280x | 8GB DDR3 | 256GB SSD | 3TB HDD
#18fire2boxPosted 10/23/2013 11:04:43 PM
ATARIJAWA posted...
You do realize that article is from May and doesn't actually examine the 8 core processors but a 4 core variant, right?


You do realize that not all 8 cores are going to be exclusively used for the games, right?

I'm betting the games will be limited to using 4 maybe 5 cores at most.
---
Ivy bridge i5 3570k @3.40GHz | 8 GB DDR3 | single XFX 7870| OCZ 600W Modular. Nvidia, AMD, Intel for life!!
3DS FC: 2208-5221-4039
#19ATARIJAWAPosted 10/24/2013 11:27:59 AM
fire2box posted...
ATARIJAWA posted...
You do realize that article is from May and doesn't actually examine the 8 core processors but a 4 core variant, right?


You do realize that not all 8 cores are going to be exclusively used for the games, right?

I'm betting the games will be limited to using 4 maybe 5 cores at most.


Yes I do realize that. I believe that the PS4 uses 6 for games, 1 for the OS and 1 is a reserve in case 1 fails. Not sure about the the xbox config.
---
Gamefaqs game rating system : 10 = Best Game Ever. 8-9. Crushing dissapointment. Below 8 :Total Garbage. This is getting ridiculous. people agreeing so far 105