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Jesus... am I so out of touch, or is gaming up its own arse lately? -_- (Gender)

#1SeanirlPosted 10/24/2013 4:40:16 AM
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/22/4643796/opinion-six-lessons-for-creating-believable-female-characters

Reading this...

Typical "not enough women in games"/"women in games should be like this"/"every single game should be an artsy tale of the human experience" stuff that we seem to get so much in recent years.

And again, I'm left wondering what in the hell. But I'd appreciate if you think I'm overlooking something, because I honestly can't recognize the world these people seem to inhabit.

I'll just take some quotes and my feelings on such.

(A+ on the Bechdel Test!)


I looked up the Bechdel Test. Basically it's some narcissistic feminist nonsense where it appears to purposefully select unreasonable criteria to create a test that is designed to fail, so they can support certain conspiracy theories the test was intended to support.

I mean honestly... you could make a test like that for anything.

What I asked about games that don't feature men killing people or men being killed? I'd be left with approximately Tetris. I could also draw any conclusion from that I liked.

Whether a damsel or "strong woman," many female characters tend to suffer from the same problem very little empathy or understanding about how they came to be what they are, except, "duh, women are like that." But here, there's evidence the women have dreams, hobbies, talents, preferences, opinions and actions.


I'm sorry... I don't recall many games focusing on whether or not the male characters have dreams, hobbies, talents, preferences, opinions or actions.

That doesn't really sound like the basis for a strong game either in most genres. And when it's an article on generalizations and trends in an industry and things which generally discuss things that are prevalent, I think it's fair to look at predominant pattern and not cite some isolated indie game that supports one's points.

Or am I mad? What kind of games are these people playing exactly?
Sure female characters are stereotyped and one-dimensional... but general... male characters are that also. Meanwhile when you look at games that have (IMO) interesting male characters, I'm going to cite Metal Gear Solid, they often also have good female characters too.
And hell, I just realized something else... all this damsel in distress business and its double standards: someone before pointed out that people like Sarkeesian look to Super Mario Bros. as an example of the damsel, despite it being a game where the majority of helpless characters in need of rescue are in fact MALE, but even in Metal Gear Solid there are many examples of captured men in need of rescue at which Sarkeesian bats not an eyelid. What if it was the ArmsTech President Katherine Baker? Or the DARPA Chief... Danielle Anderson?... yeah, something like that >_>. Point being it all of a sudden becomes a political statement because women are apparently never allowed to be seen helpless in fiction.

Do these people just ignore all of the games with the good women characters in them? Do they miss them by pure chance?

The entire core of all of these arguments seem to focus on highlighting examples of poor characterization, and then only focusing on the poorly-made women, citing it as an example of sexism.
I mean, Christ, what if we stopped stereotyping and objectifying men in games? Men could no longer be the objects of murder and no longer go around almost solely committing murder. Most of gaming would be wiped out overnight ._.

/sigh

It all looks to me like someone with a predetermined conclusion trying to make the evidence fit and not being called out.
Or are there huge swathes of the industry that I'm missing wholesale?
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No I'm not nervous about anything, I wouldn't put it out if I was nervous. So I hope people like it, if they don't like it go f*** 'emselves - Liam Gallagher
#2Seanirl(Topic Creator)Posted 10/24/2013 4:45:10 AM(edited)
Sorry for retreading old ground, but I seriously cannot f***ing grasp this line of logic o_O

And the idea that the purpose of games should seemingly be, or mostly be, or often be, or aim to be, making the player feel "understood" or relate to a character or have a character depict their own life experience just seems... baffling. That's what irks me more than the actual claims of sexism. I don't even know why they're feeling games need to be made this way.

I know it can be a good thing, or an effective thing, or whatever, but it's certainly not what games have ever been generally trying to be, so I can't see where people start expecting it and getting pissy when it doesn't materialize.
I could understand it in an RPG, but to take gaming as a whole is just ridiculous.

Oh and another thing to get off my chest...
Women like this one with the article just seem to assume that men feel "understood" or "represented" or whatever by the things expressed by characters in games, without a shred of actual evidence or actually examining the actual state of male game characters. I must assume... because this assumption allows her to support her predetermined conclusions, and it avoids a nasty discussion where she would have to admit she was wrong or just throw out half her argument.
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No I'm not nervous about anything, I wouldn't put it out if I was nervous. So I hope people like it, if they don't like it go f*** 'emselves - Liam Gallagher
#3Seanirl(Topic Creator)Posted 10/24/2013 4:58:24 AM
And another thing... why is it always up to men to fulfill the desires of these women? Is it that hard to make a game? Is it really?
Is it that hard to believe that a man might find it easier to imagine himself as a man in some absurd situation than as a woman? Especially when he knows his female characters will be scrutinized for any possible character flaw (and not having flaws is also a flaw because of some insane feminist theory about male fantasies like everything else) and will never be accepted as good characters, while it literally matters not a f*** how he creates a male character any way he wants, people will accept it for what it is.

It seems these people what men and only men to create women characters who act both exactly like they want them to... and in a way that women and only women could create.
But none of these moaners are ever actually going to pick up a keyboard and make a damn game themselves despite it never being easier and people will very little experience routinely entering 48hour game development contests.

FFS.

/anger /vent /pointless

Sorry ._.
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No I'm not nervous about anything, I wouldn't put it out if I was nervous. So I hope people like it, if they don't like it go f*** 'emselves - Liam Gallagher
#4codyorrPosted 10/24/2013 5:05:31 AM
Hahahaha. Totally agree. My blogger friend has told me about this multiple times.
#5Ikari GendoPosted 10/24/2013 5:07:25 AM
I didn't read anything but was the topic title a Simpson's reference? I wanted to reply, "no, it is the children who are wrong."
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#6LostHisHardcorePosted 10/24/2013 5:17:58 AM
Feminism attacking gaming has been going on for over a year now.

Do everyone a favour and stop reading kotaku for a start. Also look up Anita on know your meme or feminist frequency on ED for a somewhat skewed look into everyones (who isn't an IGN/Kotaku white knight) reaction

http://i.imgur.com/0c0HWou.jpg
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#7snesmaster40Posted 10/24/2013 5:19:23 AM
lol feminism
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Are we not men?
#8RolloverBouncinPosted 10/24/2013 5:22:13 AM
Holy crap! Read the whole thing and that was probably the most well written venting I've read. Yes, I agree.
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#9MonkeymagePosted 10/24/2013 5:22:49 AM
Social justice warriors and feminists have latched onto gaming, and in particular, the "indie scene" and "gaming journalists", because it's one of the few entertainment industries where there is not a dominating force that is already in place. These smaller companies are more willing to listen to the ridiculous, inclusionist demands that the crowd clamors for. They don't seem to realize that there is no stopping point; with the SJW crowd, it doesn't matter how many people you include, there will always be some incredibly marginal demographic who will pop out of the woodwork and complain, and there will always be people to white knight their cause.

Until the industry realizes that they just need to focus on the games they want to see created, and stop trying to create games for other people, we will continue to see garbage like this. If gender-fluid Armenians with seventeen toes who self-identify as giraffes want to see themselves represented, then they should make games themselves.
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#10TheC0ndemnedOnePosted 10/24/2013 5:33:56 AM(edited)
LostHisHardcore posted...
http://i.imgur.com/0c0HWou.jpg


I hate the work and mentality that these things show: stereotyping something to fight the stereotype that that something is being stereotyped.

It's like one of best examples of trying to fight fire with fire there is.
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