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True RPG gamers know that the genre is on massive decline with Bioware/Bethesda

#121VeladusPosted 12/31/2013 6:51:13 PM
Zork_Wesker posted...
I don't think you can really look at a lot of the RPGs that have come out in this last console generation and not say that comparatively speaking to what has been released 10 to 15 years ago that things are "dumbed down" in comparison. A lot of the major RPG games that were released had developed a reputation of either "playing themselves" (Final Fantasy XIII) or being turned into 3rd Person Action games (Mass Effect 2). Streamlining usually is just a flowery word for making things less complex, or "dumbed down" as a lot of others like to call it. Because for the most part, that's what's happening.

Don't misunderstand though. I'm not saying that being overly complex or even being incomprehensible are good things, but I am saying that a lot of the changes done to RPGs have not been for the better. It feels like over simplification for the most part.


I'm curious what kind of game you think Mass Effect 1 was.
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#122Zork_WeskerPosted 12/31/2013 6:58:06 PM
Veladus posted...
Zork_Wesker posted...
I don't think you can really look at a lot of the RPGs that have come out in this last console generation and not say that comparatively speaking to what has been released 10 to 15 years ago that things are "dumbed down" in comparison. A lot of the major RPG games that were released had developed a reputation of either "playing themselves" (Final Fantasy XIII) or being turned into 3rd Person Action games (Mass Effect 2). Streamlining usually is just a flowery word for making things less complex, or "dumbed down" as a lot of others like to call it. Because for the most part, that's what's happening.

Don't misunderstand though. I'm not saying that being overly complex or even being incomprehensible are good things, but I am saying that a lot of the changes done to RPGs have not been for the better. It feels like over simplification for the most part.


I'm curious what kind of game you think Mass Effect 1 was.


A pretty awkward 3rd Person Action/RPG hybrid. I'll admit I don't like playing it much after the first couple of times I played it. I didn't like how the transition going into Mass Effect 2 shed a lot of the abilities and stuff, pretty much making it to where everyone has like a handful of abilities that you'll level up one way or another. That wasn't the way to go.
#123Saga3Posted 12/31/2013 7:17:40 PM
You don't need to be a "True RPG Gamer" all anyone needs to do is look at Morrowind and then at Skyrim and see the huge decline of quality in RPGs, it epitomises it.
#124Ivany2008Posted 12/31/2013 7:29:12 PM
True RPG Gamers know that the genre has been on a massive decline since the N64 was released. Damn shame too.

SNES had at least 100 rpgs for the system during its life cycle of about 7-8 years, almost all of which I've played through to completion. Nowadays the genre is down to about 4 or 5 major series including Final Fantasy, Tales, and Persona. Sure there are other games, but none of which are being made on by major companies

Now one could argue that games like Mass Effect and Skyrim are RPGS but they really aren't. Skyrim is a first person adventure game with some stat building, while Mass Effect is a 3rd person Shooter with RPG elements.

Bioware and Bethesda didn't cause the downfall of RPGS. That was Squares fault. They pretty much forced every other RPG to be in the shadows of the major Final Fantasy brand title even if the game itself was better than the Final Fantasy title released around the same time.
#125Zork_WeskerPosted 12/31/2013 7:36:16 PM
Ivany2008 posted...
Bioware and Bethesda didn't cause the downfall of RPGS. That was Squares fault. They pretty much forced every other RPG to be in the shadows of the major Final Fantasy brand title even if the game itself was better than the Final Fantasy title released around the same time.


I don't really agree with that. Western and Japanese RPGs have always followed the beats of their own drums. Anything that Final Fantasy or any other prominent JRPG was doing, western ones like Ultima, Planescape, Baldur's Gate or Fallout were doing something completely different. It's just because gaming got more mainstream, and games like Fallout, Final Fantasy Tactics or FFVII, Ultima and all of that look intimidating compared to stuff released now on consoles. Deeper game experiences are generally considered financial risks due to barrier of entry.

The only real holdouts for more classic style RPGs nowadays can be found on handhelds and PC.
#126NingishzidaPosted 12/31/2013 7:46:57 PM(edited)
Saga3 posted...
You don't need to be a "True RPG Gamer" all anyone needs to do is look at Morrowind and then at Skyrim and see the huge decline of quality in RPGs, it epitomises it.




+Fallout -> Failout 3
+System Shock 2 -> BioSlack
+Deus Ex -> Human Relationships
+Baldur's Gate -> Dargon Ass 2/Ass Effect 3
+Gothic -> Arcania "Gothic 4"

Then you have great stuff like Arcanum, ToEE, Vampire bloodlines, Jagged Alliance 2/Silent Storm, NWN1/2 which has no contemporary analogue (The Witcher certainly doesn't carry on the tradition of cRPGs, it is a pretender.)

Without Wasteland 2, Project Whatever They Call it Now, and Torment: Numenera there would literally be no trace of cRPG remnant.

but as others have said, this is due to the gaming industry opening up to wider demographics which simply wouldn't have the mental aptitude to grapple with the RPG lord era, exemplified by Black Isle and Troika, games that haven't come close to being bettered in over 10 long years.

just accept that the scrub and schlub demographic is the target now, and become a troll and laugh hard at the awfully bad taste of contemporary brainwashed peasants, who only know the dumbed down ME3 and 'Rim.

along with criticizing the dross they release, that's what i do now, and i get off on it so much it should be a crime lol

i'm too old to game now, anyway, i have a life of sorts. there are more healthy and fun things to do with one's time than gaming, and trolling and being critical keeps the mind sharper than the casual games that only serve to dullen/blunten the mind of the gamer (the diff in intelligence between a Fallout 1 and a Fallout 3 gamer is rather ... eerie) >_>
#1270ReapeR0Posted 12/31/2013 7:57:59 PM
pothocket posted...
PraetorXyn posted...
pothocket posted...
TC claims to be describing old games in the second example but it sure as hell seems exactly like a modern Bethesda game. It's surprising because you'd think a true RPG gamer would know that...


No. Skyrim will not let you kill essential NPC's, for one. Morrowind did, and then gave you a message saying you'd killed an essential NPC, so if you didn't reload your save you knew you were screwed out of a quest.


I'm pretty sure Skyrim will let you kill any bartender. Name one that is an essential NPC.


Go and kill the jarls of the towns, I'll be playing fallout killing every adult and child NPC I can find
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#128VeladusPosted 12/31/2013 8:06:55 PM
Zork_Wesker posted...
A pretty awkward 3rd Person Action/RPG hybrid. I'll admit I don't like playing it much after the first couple of times I played it. I didn't like how the transition going into Mass Effect 2 shed a lot of the abilities and stuff, pretty much making it to where everyone has like a handful of abilities that you'll level up one way or another. That wasn't the way to go.


It was always that way. By the time you got to level 60 in ME1, you weren't just putting points into skills you'd never use, you had some of them maxed out. While ME2 didn't bring back every ability, it did add a lot of new ones. And Reave is a lot better for the game than Immunity was. Battles in ME1 on high difficulty were mindnumbingly terrible because it took hundreds of shots to bring a single mook down. Every mission with enemy krogan made me want to cry. Not in fear of a challenge, but because I knew it'd be a 3 minute firefight to bring down every single one of them.

ME2 was a massive improvement over ME1 gameplay wise. Likewise, ME3 was a massive improvement over 2, sans that godawful weight system. Storywise, it was kind of the reverse.

Ivany2008 posted...
True RPG Gamers know that the genre has been on a massive decline since the N64 was released. Damn shame too.

SNES had at least 100 rpgs for the system during its life cycle of about 7-8 years, almost all of which I've played through to completion. Nowadays the genre is down to about 4 or 5 major series including Final Fantasy, Tales, and Persona. Sure there are other games, but none of which are being made on by major companies

Now one could argue that games like Mass Effect and Skyrim are RPGS but they really aren't. Skyrim is a first person adventure game with some stat building, while Mass Effect is a 3rd person Shooter with RPG elements.

Bioware and Bethesda didn't cause the downfall of RPGS. That was Squares fault. They pretty much forced every other RPG to be in the shadows of the major Final Fantasy brand title even if the game itself was better than the Final Fantasy title released around the same time.


Funny, I was thinking the same. I don't know how you can call Lightning's Magical Dress-Up or whatever the new Final Fantasy is as an RPG. Shockingly, RPG means "Role Playing Game." So the key point of being an RPG is being able to play a role. Not having a little bar that says "HP". IMO, jRPGs were you don't even get a choice of dialogue are no more an RPG than Super Mario Brothers is (which I assume you're well acquainted with, having gone with the hilariously bad N64 instead of the PSX as an example of that era). In wRPGS, we play the role we choose. We go where we want, we do what we want (all within reason of course). jRPGs don't even let you decide the type of hallway you're going to take Lightning through.

You're right, one of these isn't much of an RPG for sure.
---
Captain America is just like Hulk Hogan. Both tout the American flag, both were born in the 1920's, and both got their powers from a needle full of drugs.
#129SleepComaPosted 12/31/2013 8:46:32 PM
Ningishzida posted...
Saga3 posted...
You don't need to be a "True RPG Gamer" all anyone needs to do is look at Morrowind and then at Skyrim and see the huge decline of quality in RPGs, it epitomises it.




+Fallout -> Failout 3
+System Shock 2 -> BioSlack
+Deus Ex -> Human Relationships
+Baldur's Gate -> Dargon Ass 2/Ass Effect 3
+Gothic -> Arcania "Gothic 4"

Then you have great stuff like Arcanum, ToEE, Vampire bloodlines, Jagged Alliance 2/Silent Storm, NWN1/2 which has no contemporary analogue (The Witcher certainly doesn't carry on the tradition of cRPGs, it is a pretender.)

Without Wasteland 2, Project Whatever They Call it Now, and Torment: Numenera there would literally be no trace of cRPG remnant.

but as others have said, this is due to the gaming industry opening up to wider demographics which simply wouldn't have the mental aptitude to grapple with the RPG lord era, exemplified by Black Isle and Troika, games that haven't come close to being bettered in over 10 long years.

just accept that the scrub and schlub demographic is the target now, and become a troll and laugh hard at the awfully bad taste of contemporary brainwashed peasants, who only know the dumbed down ME3 and 'Rim.

along with criticizing the dross they release, that's what i do now, and i get off on it so much it should be a crime lol

i'm too old to game now, anyway, i have a life of sorts. there are more healthy and fun things to do with one's time than gaming, and trolling and being critical keeps the mind sharper than the casual games that only serve to dullen/blunten the mind of the gamer (the diff in intelligence between a Fallout 1 and a Fallout 3 gamer is rather ... eerie) >_>


"Why I am the way I am on GameFAQS"
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#130Zork_WeskerPosted 12/31/2013 8:54:13 PM
Veladus posted...
It was always that way. By the time you got to level 60 in ME1, you weren't just putting points into skills you'd never use, you had some of them maxed out. While ME2 didn't bring back every ability, it did add a lot of new ones. And Reave is a lot better for the game than Immunity was. Battles in ME1 on high difficulty were mindnumbingly terrible because it took hundreds of shots to bring a single mook down. Every mission with enemy krogan made me want to cry. Not in fear of a challenge, but because I knew it'd be a 3 minute firefight to bring down every single one of them.

ME2 was a massive improvement over ME1 gameplay wise. Likewise, ME3 was a massive improvement over 2, sans that godawful weight system. Storywise, it was kind of the reverse


That's sort of true, but it always felt to me like they could've done a little more. In ME2 and 3 it always seemed like you still just went for a few key abilities and everything else was fairly worthless. You're also right about higher difficulty ME1 gameplay being boring as hell. I wouldn't go as far to say that ME3 is a massive improvement over ME2. There was improvement, but not THAT much.

Point being, I liked Mass Effect, but the sequels made it obsolete in a hurry. However, the sequels didn't explore too much in any ways to make the game have more depth or exploration.