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True RPG gamers know that the genre is on massive decline with Bioware/Bethesda

#131SinfullyvannilaPosted 12/31/2013 9:15:55 PM(edited)
Ivany2008 posted...
True RPG Gamers know that the genre has been on a massive decline since the N64 was released. Damn shame too.

SNES had at least 100 rpgs for the system during its life cycle of about 7-8 years, almost all of which I've played through to completion. Nowadays the genre is down to about 4 or 5 major series including Final Fantasy, Tales, and Persona. Sure there are other games, but none of which are being made on by major companies

Now one could argue that games like Mass Effect and Skyrim are RPGS but they really aren't. Skyrim is a first person adventure game with some stat building, while Mass Effect is a 3rd person Shooter with RPG elements.

Bioware and Bethesda didn't cause the downfall of RPGS. That was Squares fault. They pretty much forced every other RPG to be in the shadows of the major Final Fantasy brand title even if the game itself was better than the Final Fantasy title released around the same time.


Ehh, I'd say the turning point was KOTOR. Before FF7, JRPGs just copied Dragon Quest, so there's really not too big a difference there. I'd actually say that have become less derivitive more steadily than WRPGs. After KOTOR and Morrowind, Western devs started mostly copying Bioware and Bethesda exclusively. Before there were tons of different kinds of RPGs being released in the west, like Ultima Underworld, Might and Magic, Infinity engine games, etc.

The last two gens, Japanese RPGs have really started coming out of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy's shadow. Japanese RPGs have never been more diverse than they are now. You just have to have more than one console to see the big picture with that. In the last couple years, with the advent of crowd funding it's been the same with RPGs from the west.

So hopefully were about to come out of a dark age and see a whole bunch of diversity in the next few years.
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#132SinfullyvannilaPosted 12/31/2013 9:13:50 PM(edited)
Veladus posted...
Zork_Wesker posted...
A pretty awkward 3rd Person Action/RPG hybrid. I'll admit I don't like playing it much after the first couple of times I played it. I didn't like how the transition going into Mass Effect 2 shed a lot of the abilities and stuff, pretty much making it to where everyone has like a handful of abilities that you'll level up one way or another. That wasn't the way to go.


It was always that way. By the time you got to level 60 in ME1, you weren't just putting points into skills you'd never use, you had some of them maxed out. While ME2 didn't bring back every ability, it did add a lot of new ones. And Reave is a lot better for the game than Immunity was. Battles in ME1 on high difficulty were mindnumbingly terrible because it took hundreds of shots to bring a single mook down. Every mission with enemy krogan made me want to cry. Not in fear of a challenge, but because I knew it'd be a 3 minute firefight to bring down every single one of them.

ME2 was a massive improvement over ME1 gameplay wise. Likewise, ME3 was a massive improvement over 2, sans that godawful weight system. Storywise, it was kind of the reverse.

Ivany2008 posted...
True RPG Gamers know that the genre has been on a massive decline since the N64 was released. Damn shame too.

SNES had at least 100 rpgs for the system during its life cycle of about 7-8 years, almost all of which I've played through to completion. Nowadays the genre is down to about 4 or 5 major series including Final Fantasy, Tales, and Persona. Sure there are other games, but none of which are being made on by major companies

Now one could argue that games like Mass Effect and Skyrim are RPGS but they really aren't. Skyrim is a first person adventure game with some stat building, while Mass Effect is a 3rd person Shooter with RPG elements.

Bioware and Bethesda didn't cause the downfall of RPGS. That was Squares fault. They pretty much forced every other RPG to be in the shadows of the major Final Fantasy brand title even if the game itself was better than the Final Fantasy title released around the same time.


Funny, I was thinking the same. I don't know how you can call Lightning's Magical Dress-Up or whatever the new Final Fantasy is as an RPG. Shockingly, RPG means "Role Playing Game." So the key point of being an RPG is being able to play a role. Not having a little bar that says "HP". IMO, jRPGs were you don't even get a choice of dialogue are no more an RPG than Super Mario Brothers is (which I assume you're well acquainted with, having gone with the hilariously bad N64 instead of the PSX as an example of that era). In wRPGS, we play the role we choose. We go where we want, we do what we want (all within reason of course). jRPGs don't even let you decide the type of hallway you're going to take Lightning through.

You're right, one of these isn't much of an RPG for sure.


You always do what the dev wants in both. You just have less options in some games than others.
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#133ShadowThaReaperPosted 12/31/2013 9:17:24 PM
You casuals get mad so easily.
#134VeladusPosted 12/31/2013 9:30:17 PM
Zork_Wesker posted...
-bah, have to snip for post length-


ME1 also had the same thing. Who puts points into pistols when you can have assault rifles? Immunity and singularity in ME1 were game-changing. Immunity gave a 70% damage reduction, and singularity turned the game into "shoot all the helpless floating people." Probably one reason Liara was so popular. She was the go-to squadmate for just trivializing almost anything with singularity. Consequently, singularity (and biotics in general) kind of sucked in 2.

I say ME3 was a huge improvement over 2 because the movement is much smoother, Shepard doesn't get winded after 2 seconds of sprinted, and the ammo problem of 2 was largely fixed. In 2, the difficulty at higher levels was from running low on ammo. Even if you never missed a shot, you'd always be low on ammo playing ME2 insanity. People complained Adrenaline Rush was overpowered, but really, you needed that damage boost as a soldier because you'd be out of ammo in no time otherwise.

I agree, there was much less exploration in 2 and 3. In 3 I can see why. The Reapers are invading, now's not the time to go digging for fricking platinum on unexplored planets. In ME2 though I was shocked how little there was to explore. Though I did not, in any way, miss more of the Mako's never-ending grudge match with gravity. Even with maps it was a nightmare to get around in that thing. The galaxy is composed entirely out of cliffs and the Alliance gives us the tank from NES's Blaster Master. Thanks guys.

But when it comes down to it, what I really loved the series for was its story. I actually bought a $350 model of Sovereign, which is the kind of fanboy insanity I never thought I'd have for a video game. In ME1, we were given a complex story that gave us a true and perfect Lovecraftian Horror. Which we then blew apart to much satisfaction. ME2 gave us a couple of great shockers. I literally couldn't sleep the night I got to the Collector Ship and found out what the Collectors truly are. Mind = blown, truly. But when you step back and look at the overall story... what was the point of ME2? It might as well have not even happened. ME3 gave us a few fantastic feel-good moments. We'd been waiting 6 years to make things right with the krogan and geth, and it was a tearjerker for a lot of folks when it haappened. But overall, the story was kind of... disappointing. The Crucible was the worst Deus Ex Machina ever. We spent most of the game about the Reapers fighting Cerberus? That's 31 flavors of stupid. And of course, the yo dawg logic of the Reapers. I do think BW meant it as an indoctrination event horizon, but I also think they lost any guts they had to follow through after the fan backlash and are now just going to canonize the whole terrible mess. What a sad end to the perfect Lovecraftian Horror. :(
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#135jastenPosted 12/31/2013 9:57:10 PM
Nostalgia glasses are really something sometimes... while some classics still hold up, there are those *cough Fallout cough* that just don't hold up today, especially compared to a successor in Fallout: New Vegas.

There are great RPGs out there still... and more coming. Instead of being close minded fools pounding the classic nostalgia gavel... actually take a look and experience what there is to offer.
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#136VeiledGenesisPosted 12/31/2013 9:59:41 PM
michemai posted...
'True RPG gamers'.

People who use that term and believe they are one are so adorable.


I'm pretty sure LARPers are the truest form of RPG gamer ever. Them and Hollywood actors.
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#137Zork_WeskerPosted 1/1/2014 12:17:00 AM
Veladus posted...
Snippity


I think we're pretty much in agreement that we liked these games, but didn't like certain things about them in different ways. I also agree with you about how the storyline was handled up until the end. I was advocating earlier in the thread that you can't just write off storyline, strong characters, and choices in an RPG simply for strong mechanics and gameplay because without all that you're most of the time left with a fairly bland game without it. Imagine Mass Effect without all that stuff. It'd be like an awful Gears of War rip off and would be treated as such.

Also, I forgot about the improvements to traversing the environments I did enjoy that more.

To me, Mass Effect 3 and Final Fantasy XIII both represent pretty significant botches for console RPGs. There were lesser botches like Dragon Age 2 among other things, but I still feel like you'd be crazy to think the RPG climate of today is much better than what we had years ago. There was far more diversity offered with very engrossing and rich games. We did get some good games last gen, but I'm very hard pressed to think we're in a better or as good position when it comes to RPGs.
#138hitokiri13Posted 1/1/2014 2:01:33 AM
Why not everyone in this topic design a open RPG game? Someone has to bring back tabletop RPG experience into this gaming world.
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#139KotomineKireiPosted 1/1/2014 3:04:10 AM
hitokiri13 posted...
Why not everyone in this topic design a open RPG game? Someone has to bring back tabletop RPG experience into this gaming world.


That's...actually a great idea!
Well, sort of.
Some people in the topic might need to be excluded from its development.
Aside from that, a very great idea, I say!
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#140TheOtherGuyXPosted 1/1/2014 3:28:26 AM
A more appropriate title for this topic should be directed towards mainstream RPGs, not the entire genre considering what's in store. Underrail, Might & Magic X, Blackguards, Wasteland 2, Age of Decadence, Torment, Eschalon III, Grimrock 2, Pillars of Eternity, Grimoire (lol) and Divinity: Original Sin. Possibly others I'm forgetting.

If anything, "true RPG gamers" would be following said projects happily. Especially seeing the resurgence of turn-based combat as of late. There wasn't much incline for 2013 admittedly, but we did get a gem like Paper Sorceror.

Feel free to apply the same optimism towards adventure games, a genre many of us thought quite dead until Kickstarter came along. Now we're even going to get a new Tex Murphy game of all the series to be resurrected, what more can a man ask for?
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