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#341Tyranius2(Topic Creator)Posted 3/25/2014 3:13:29 PM
Your arguments will be debunked over and over again.


Bold claim for someone who didn't debunk a single argument yet.
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#342MeCaranaPosted 3/25/2014 3:24:46 PM
Tyranius2 posted...

2. the original is still there

nowhere in the definition does it say that the original must disappear. Nowhere in the definition does it state that you need to deprive the owner of anything.


Actually, it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft#Canada

Deprivation. You're not deprived of your good, if I make a copy. You still have it, can use it.

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About the law contradiction thing, I concede your point. But there are really three debates going on here.

The first is about if piracy is good or not, from an absolute (moral-less) standpoint. The answer it is is neither good or bad, because bad and good are human inventions.

The second is the legal aspects of piracy. Are we doing enough? Are we using the right definitions? Should we put down piracy or let it live? Does it harms society? All the answers depends on the situation, each and every different situation, and what is at stake.

The third is "Is piracy theft?" or "Should piracy be considered theft". That's semantics, philosophical rock paper scissors, depends on subjective interpretation, people can disagree here. This debate is pointless and a waste of time. It also leads to a discussion if our definition of theft is enough. Stealing data.... but not using it, is it still theft? Can you steal electrical signals? Technically, I could reproduce the entire bit sequence and write it to a drive with a machine, from a sheet of paper, and have a working game.

So the answer is, we have laws, laws are not perfect but laws mostly help keep order. But laws can be wrong, so we could define piracy another way.
However, actions causing disorders are not morally wrong, or good even, only wrong in the eye of the law.
The law itself is neither morally good or bad.

It's circular like that.

So piracy is, considering morality is subjective, neither good or bad, by itself.
Then, we apply moral codes on it. Laws are based on ethics/moral codes.

So what should we do? Piracy is bad because the law says so, but the law isn't absolute? What if the law is wrong about piracy? Are the definitons okay? Why would YOUR definition of theft be better than mine? Considering the nature of data, bits, vampire tapping them is possible, etc...

Lots of questions, no real answers.

@ Drink: I am on the fence. I'm neither for or against it. It's an action with consequences - consequences varies depending on the situation at the moment of the action.
#343MeCaranaPosted 3/25/2014 3:42:07 PM(edited)
Tyranius2 posted...
Your arguments will be debunked over and over again.


Bold claim for someone who didn't debunk a single argument yet.


I tried not to go there, it's borderline ad hominem. Instead of attacking what I say, you keep saying I debunked nothing. If my whole posts debunked nothing, then surely you can refute them, entirely, right?

Ask other people, my points are good.
Yours, on the other hand, have been quite criticized... What if I decide I've made my point and then leave? Did you win by default? Is leaving me losing? Then what is the point of arguing against you?

Anyway, I may not change your beliefs, but I can only tell you you're wrong - people will back me up. Or discuss points, and point to me alternatives.

Or are those people wrong too, and the only point that is good, and true, is yours? Then, what is the point of discussing then? You're right from the start. Nothing can be refuted. You already won before we started.

Or not. At this point, please stop spewing the same thing over and over again. Piracy is neither good or bad, on a macro scale it all depends on various factors, and on a micro scale we can analyse how these factors come together, cause and effect.

You can't just say piracy is good or bad, just like that. It's not as simple as taking a life, many many many things come into effects. Huge corporations, tons of workers, laws, nature of data, etc... It's not just a caveman stealing a bow.



One thing I'd like to ask everyone here though, why this debate? Why does it matter people pirate? So far, the industry didn't die, it's thriving.

Ubisoft DRMs caused more harm.

I feel this is a "From my moral standpoint, this is bad, he shouldn't be doing it! Somebody stop him!". Morals. Subjective. No higher power (God) being the judge of it.

Your morals don't apply to everyone. STOP PUSHING THEM ON PEOPLE!

Stop him yourself.

"You can't like what I don't like!"

Actions are neither good or bad. What makes them good or bad is the FILTER society views them through.
#344MeCaranaPosted 3/25/2014 3:50:55 PM
I'm gonna go beyond that. #FirstWorldProblems

This debate is ridiculous. People starve, people die, people do nothing to help them, but no, we rather criticize people for copying bits of data?

I'm done with this debate. I just figured it out, it makes no sense to argue that, feminism, or anything that can be considered first world problems.
#345Master_BassPosted 3/25/2014 3:53:02 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#346Cowboy082288Posted 3/25/2014 4:40:48 PM(edited)
MeCarana posted...
I'm gonna go beyond that. #FirstWorldProblems

This debate is ridiculous. People starve, people die, people do nothing to help them, but no, we rather criticize people for copying bits of data?

I'm done with this debate. I just figured it out, it makes no sense to argue that, feminism, or anything that can be considered first world problems.


That is such a stupid argument. So no one should talk about what the budget for a space program should be, what tax rates work best in first world countries, copyright laws, or a host of other issues all because those are 'first world problems'.

At any rate stealing games is still morally wrong. It is funny how the people that scream 'don't push your morals on me' are the same one that want to do something that is immoral. You can blather all you want about some abstraction saying that morals are not real or whatever. In the real world morals do matter, and people don't care about your philosophy when you are trying to take advantage of them.
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#347MeCaranaPosted 3/25/2014 6:09:09 PM
Cowboy082288 posted...
MeCarana posted...
I'm gonna go beyond that. #FirstWorldProblems

This debate is ridiculous. People starve, people die, people do nothing to help them, but no, we rather criticize people for copying bits of data?

I'm done with this debate. I just figured it out, it makes no sense to argue that, feminism, or anything that can be considered first world problems.


That is such a stupid argument. So no one should talk about what the budget for a space program should be, what tax rates work best in first world countries, copyright laws, or a host of other issues all because those are 'first world problems'.

At any rate stealing games is still morally wrong. It is funny how the people that scream 'don't push your morals on me' are the same one that want to do something that is immoral. You can blather all you want about some abstraction saying that morals are not real or whatever. In the real world morals do matter, and people don't care about your philosophy when you are trying to take advantage of them.


Good points. I appreciate good discourse! If we want to maintain our western world lifestyle, we do need to manage issues we have. We can't just drop everything - wasn't what I meant, but I see how I should have specified it. However, since the dawn of piracy, there has been little damage to corporations, so it's not as bad as we (they) want (us) to think.

And it's true, in practice, morals are so very much around us and people don't care about people who don't have morals, for whatever reason that they don't have them. So, if we go by this, stealing is morally wrong? Yep, I'd say so. But then again, so are many shady business practices, but two wrongs still don't make a right. What about philosophical reasons that justify piracy? Aren't they worth as much as the philosophical reasons behind companies policies?

We need to go deeper.
#348drinkPosted 3/25/2014 6:47:01 PM(edited)
Actions are neither good or bad. What makes them good or bad is the FILTER society views them through.


I think thats the point everyone is trying to make. Society in general views piracy as a bad thing.
Your argument can be applied to pedophilia or murder. Some people think its ok, but society in general views it as bad. *i know these are extreme examples, but I only used them to make a point*

Everything on this earth is filtered by society and stamped with a good or bad label. Some may not agree, but as long as you live within a society you disagree with, you have to follow its rules and laws. With that being said, piracy is illegal and bad. Not based on my ideals or feelings, but based on the society we live in (assuming your location finds piracy illegal). If you know of something higher then that, I would like to know. *excluding religion*
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You didn't try google, you made that up...
Twist those dirty bags - Shake
#349Tyranius2(Topic Creator)Posted 3/25/2014 7:25:05 PM
Actually, it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft#Canada

Deprivation. You're not deprived of your good, if I make a copy. You still have it, can use it.


I said definition not criminal codes which are opinions. Are you acting dumb?


The third is "Is piracy theft?" or "Should piracy be considered theft". That's semantics, philosophical rock paper scissors, depends on subjective interpretation, people can disagree here.


And yet I presented "rock" and you couldn't present the "paper". It's not subjective interpretation, piracy fits the definition of stealing word for word. People disagree with that all the time, but they have never ever presented any argument against the definition of the dictionary, EVER. Disagreeing doesn't invalidate the argument, pro-piracy people just prefer to ignore the argument because they can't refute it.

The fact that you backpedal to the criminal code every time I present you the dictionary definition is a good example of what I just said.


Piracy is bad because the law says so


Piracy is bad to any half decent person. You can argue all day that there's no damage done or whatever pro-piracy argument people make, it does not change the fact that it is a bunch of people that are taking a product without paying.

So to sum up, you CAN believe piracy is a crime with no damage done. You can even believe that it has benefits. But you can't believe that people who do it are decent. If you disagree then you are a trash human being.

P.S: I know there are people who pirate for legitimate reasons, and it's also common sense that this group is a tiny, tiny fraction of pirates.


Ask other people, my points are good.


I don't give a bear's ass what people think. Your points are horrible and debunked nothing. You presented arguments that were already taken down in several other piracy topics.


Your morals don't apply to everyone. STOP PUSHING THEM ON PEOPLE!


It is a fact that pirates are not decent people. Any person with a brain will believe that getting stuff that costs money without paying is not something a decent person would do.

Also, when do we draw the line? Do you think it's alright if a portion of people in the world think murder and rape is fine [and they also act on those beliefs]? Will you really say "they're not bad people, their morals are different."

Morals can be discussed in a lot of cases, but this ain't one of them.
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#350Ch3wyPosted 3/25/2014 7:31:33 PM(edited)
Dictionary definition of theft:

"the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it"
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How the hell can a octopus live outside of water anyways? This is so stupid. -Fade2black001