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You know what the worst part about Mass Effect 3 was?

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1 year ago#91
ShadowThaReaper posted...
Sinfullyvannila posted...
If it is a ubiquitous plot point, it is by definition not a DEM.


That's not true. Stop spreading that crap here.


It's absolutely true. the qualifications for DEM are EXTREMELY specific.

It's not just any ending that involves gods and/or machines, and it's not shorthand for "a bad ending".
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1 year ago#92
Sinfullyvannila posted...
Forever Shadowed posted...
Ikari Gendo posted...
It's not a deus ex machina if it's at the beginning and lasts literally the whole story.


Well, I agree 99% of the time a DEM applies to the ending but I don't think the overall idea of one - "whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object" - is ruined over WHERE it takes place.

Some hidden anti-reaper device buried under Mars (which BTW is right next to the human home world and (I think) Liara was around it too!) is a major DEM based on the previous games' attitude about the Reapers.


If it is a ubiquitous plot point, it is by definition not a DEM. Since it was pre-existing, it wasn't a "new" event etc.

Also you kill a Reaper in ME1.

Not to mention the inherent hostility of AI vs OI being a central theme since the beginning of the series.


I look at it like

ME up till Mars mission: OMG The Reapers are invulnerable! We can't possilbly beat a whole army of them! We are all going to die!

ME after Mars mission: Wait, all we gotta do is use this device. Nevermind! Thanks Mac!

And Yeah, but part of the holy **** message was that it took basically everything they had and a couple miracles to kill one. Even after ME1, we all felt like defeating a whole army of those things was impossible
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1 year ago#93
clowning posted...
Forever Shadowed posted...
pothocket posted...
I'm still going to need someone to explain what these 'RPG elements' are because my vocabulary might be different than yours. Like how Shadow is confusing depth with complexity and calling ME2 a gears clone. I can't have a conversation with that level of ignorance.


all the loot in ME1. ammo and armor mods.


It's sad when garbage loot defines the quality of an RPG as a whole....


Yeah, so that's it? The crap loot system is what makes it an RPG?
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1 year ago#94
Forever Shadowed posted...
Sinfullyvannila posted...
Forever Shadowed posted...
Ikari Gendo posted...
It's not a deus ex machina if it's at the beginning and lasts literally the whole story.


Well, I agree 99% of the time a DEM applies to the ending but I don't think the overall idea of one - "whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object" - is ruined over WHERE it takes place.

Some hidden anti-reaper device buried under Mars (which BTW is right next to the human home world and (I think) Liara was around it too!) is a major DEM based on the previous games' attitude about the Reapers.


If it is a ubiquitous plot point, it is by definition not a DEM. Since it was pre-existing, it wasn't a "new" event etc.

Also you kill a Reaper in ME1.

Not to mention the inherent hostility of AI vs OI being a central theme since the beginning of the series.


I look at it like

ME up till Mars mission: OMG The Reapers are invulnerable! We can't possilbly beat a whole army of them! We are all going to die!

ME after Mars mission: Wait, all we gotta do is use this device. Nevermind! Thanks Mac!

And Yeah, but part of the holy **** message was that it took basically everything they had and a couple miracles to kill one. Even after ME1, we all felt like defeating a whole army of those things was impossible


I mean where did you expect it to go from there?

Did you want for them to be right about them being impossible to defeat and everyone to just die?

If you write impossible to beat enemies in a story either everyone dies or some improbable circumstances arise that allow for their defeat.
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1 year ago#95
Forever Shadowed posted...
Sinfullyvannila posted...
Forever Shadowed posted...
Ikari Gendo posted...
It's not a deus ex machina if it's at the beginning and lasts literally the whole story.


Well, I agree 99% of the time a DEM applies to the ending but I don't think the overall idea of one - "whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object" - is ruined over WHERE it takes place.

Some hidden anti-reaper device buried under Mars (which BTW is right next to the human home world and (I think) Liara was around it too!) is a major DEM based on the previous games' attitude about the Reapers.


If it is a ubiquitous plot point, it is by definition not a DEM. Since it was pre-existing, it wasn't a "new" event etc.

Also you kill a Reaper in ME1.

Not to mention the inherent hostility of AI vs OI being a central theme since the beginning of the series.


I look at it like

ME up till Mars mission: OMG The Reapers are invulnerable! We can't possilbly beat a whole army of them! We are all going to die!

ME after Mars mission: Wait, all we gotta do is use this device. Nevermind! Thanks Mac!

And Yeah, but part of the holy **** message was that it took basically everything they had and a couple miracles to kill one. Even after ME1, we all felt like defeating a whole army of those things was impossible


They acted like it was a shot in the dark the whole time. And keep in mind, the factions involved pretty much devoted all of their resources to making the thing, which involved Shepard accomplishing ridiculous feats of goodwill to get them to do it. Not only that, but the design of it was a culmination of countless millennia of Reaped civilizations incrementally working on it.

At the end of the day though, the plot relied on finding some sort of technological advantage against the reapers, or some sort of intervention. It ended up being the technological route.
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1 year ago#96
Either way the writing in the series went from pretty good SciFi to OMG I WROTE MYSELF INTO A HOLE AND I CANT GET OUT.

And because I am a bitter gamier I am going to assume it happened because orders from EA were to prioritize the monetization of the multiplayer over spending time hashing out the narrative details.
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If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.
1 year ago#97
No they didn't. You're just looking for a flaw that doesn't exist. The idea of the plot is sound. That's not saying it's immune to poor execution, but it isn't inherently flawed.

The plot of the first one was the standard WRPG archetype. Something ancient threatens to return and you have to unite the factions against it. They end up using a precursor civilizations means to solve their problems. The backstory and world build were pretty good sci-fi, but the story outline was neither original nor offensive.
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1 year ago#98
Sinfullyvannila posted...

The plot of the first one was the standard WRPG archetype. Something ancient threatens to return and you have to unite the factions against it. They end up using a precursor civilizations means to solve their problems.


You know, I haven't played many WRPGs but this definition seems appropriate.
On top of my mind I can think of Skyrim's plot being essentially that, too.

JRPGs usually handle this kind of plot much better than WRPGs, take Lightning Returns for example: you're told right from the start that the world is doomed and there is no way to save it, and at the end what happens is precisely that without any DEM saving the world at the last minute.
1 year ago#99
Sinfullyvannila posted...

The plot of the first one was the standard WRPG archetype. Something ancient threatens to return and you have to unite the factions against it. They end up using a precursor civilizations means to solve their problems.


Yeah, and if it was the plot of a JRPG, Shepard would a be a 16 year old orphan, whose parents were killed by some military raid. Now the commander of that raid is trying to take over the world, but it turns out he's just a puppet for some alien menace that is trying to wipe out all of reality!
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1 year ago#100
pothocket posted...
Sinfullyvannila posted...

The plot of the first one was the standard WRPG archetype. Something ancient threatens to return and you have to unite the factions against it. They end up using a precursor civilizations means to solve their problems.


Yeah, and if it was the plot of a JRPG, Shepard would a be a 16 year old orphan, whose parents were killed by some military raid. Now the commander of that raid is trying to take over the world, but it turns out he's just a puppet for some alien menace that is trying to wipe out all of reality!


That doesn't sound like the plot of, say, FFXII or Chrono Trigger.
JRPGs are way more diverse, even if they have their share of stereotypes.
What you described, though, is pretty much the first ME's plot, minus the "16 year old" part.
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