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MOBAs

#51happyscrub1Posted 6/12/2014 2:04:26 PM
RTS players think unforgiving means a game is harder. If that is so, they would love Rock, Paper, Scissors. I hear one mistake and it's game over in a split second!
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#52KillerTrufflePosted 6/12/2014 2:05:24 PM
I said nothing about "my friends" anywhere as I recall. And nice of you to just write off teamwork as a non-skill. That's an awfully convincing argument.

The closest argument I've seen you give is "RTS involves everything you have to do in a MOBA but more." Except there are so many differences between the two genres that you really can't say that. You may have more units to control, but you group those into control groups for one-touch activation, and you can hotkey their (usually single) abilities. There are no AI creeps that will push through to your base and destroy it while you're using your armies to deal with enemy armies. Lane balance is a non-issue in RTS. You do have to research upgrades for units, but you can always have access to every upgrade and max your units. In MOBAs, you have to select your equipment to fill only 6 inventory slots, based on what your role will be and what your hero needs for bonuses. You also can't just hotkey the research and have it when time is up - when you buy something, you have to determine how to actually *get* it. Especially if a secret shop is involved - either you or the courier has to retrieve it. If you leave your lane, it's instantly balanced in the other team's favor, and they continue to earn gold and experience while you don't. But if you send your courier, it's not available to get something to someone else, which may mean the difference between their having a major boosted item at the right time or not (coordination comes in here).

And yes, you can just stick with one single hero and become amazingly good at it while ignoring all the rest, and it won't be nearly as hard... except that when you stick with one hero, you're completely vulnerable to the other side always choosing a unit that's a solid counter for that hero, effectively removing you from the game. It's stupid to learn only one hero - you have to know LOTS and be flexible. There are also ways to use the variety of skills that take some time to master, and even then, require careful coordination.

Yes, you're only controlling one unit (or a small group at most), but you're doing so much more with that one unit than you do with any given RTS unit, you really can't claim that "RTS does all that and more."
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"How do I get rid of a Trojan Horse?" -Sailor_Kakashi
"Leave it outside the gates of Troy overnight." -Davel23
#53Tyranius2Posted 6/12/2014 2:13:01 PM
except that when you stick with one hero, you're completely vulnerable to the other side always choosing a unit that's a solid counter for that hero, effectively removing you from the game.


That's what happened with Admiral Bulldog when he fell from grace. He had proficiency with such a small hero pool to work with that the other teams started banning his every heroes and shutting him down making him a burden on the rest of his team.
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#54LvthnPosted 6/12/2014 2:20:14 PM
MOBAs have gone in a weird direction.

The standard MOBA arena has lanes, towers, and creep, and probably a jungle. In this arena you will spend much if not most of your time killing AI while engaging in low-level non-commital PvP in which both parties basically just want to not screw up their PvE by accidentally getting too deep into the PvP and losing the massive advantage given to farming creep. It takes all the fun of PvP and spoils it with not only the obligation to PvE but to take few PvP risks lest you lose the massive PvE time investment.

The alternate modes are generally far more fun and PvP oriented but strangely enough get derided as requiring no skill or being imbalanced, etc (they often are imbalanced but it's because the characters are all designed around the standard arena). Bizarrely, players seem to universally prefer their PvP to come with a heaping helping of stressful grinding and the risk of blowing an entire hour if just one guy on your team (or the other, for that matter) is a bastard. If you'd like to get to a level where the risk of bastard teammates is low, you will have to spend hundreds of hours working your way up the ladder until you're in the upper percent where everyone's a tryhard.

The basics of gameplay and design are great, I see why that's popular. Whoever decided it should have this format is clearly a sadist. RTS usually has the potential for real action within a few minutes and the only delay is the utterly unavoidable "evil" that is strategy game setup.
#55KillerTrufflePosted 6/12/2014 2:33:28 PM(edited)
I personally like to balance my "creep farming" with healthy doses of harassing or ganking opposing players. I'm not going to engage a hero directly if I'm near his creeps who will immediately switch targets to me, placing me at a disadvantage... but if he's hanging out nearby, I'll totally throw out potshots to at least harass him and force him to keep healing, or else make him back off enough he may stop earning EXP or gold from creeps.

You're right - direct confrontation tends to happen later on, but there's a lot more to the early game than *just* grinding - even there, you should be working to deny the enemy EXP and gold as much as you work to earn it yourself. It's a pretty huge balancing act, actually, and involves quite a bit more than "mindless grind" the way you imply.
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"How do I get rid of a Trojan Horse?" -Sailor_Kakashi
"Leave it outside the gates of Troy overnight." -Davel23
#56akuma634Posted 6/12/2014 3:21:08 PM
I haven't heard of the genre until League Of Legends and DOTA2 suddenly became widely talked about. I've yet to even play anything of the genre. I'm not even really sure what these games are all about either. From what I know, it's based heavily on team work and if there's one weak link, then the whole team falls apart. Because of that the community is very harsh on newcomers. That makes me think that there should be a beginner area that is separate from the veterans.

The whole thing is crazy how popular it's become all over the world. MOBAs are the king of e-sports, there are sponsors, official teams, and even coaches. The stuff I've heard about the professional teams is crazy, like these people have the muscle memory to do something like 300 commands per minute. I don't how you could train your brain to pull that off. The big MOBAs sound way too intimidating to even try. I am actually curious about DC: Infinite Crisis since that looks like a good casual/newbie friendly take on the genre, plus it's got tons of variations on DC characters from all different realities.
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#57KillerTrufflePosted 6/12/2014 3:28:39 PM
akuma634 posted...
That makes me think that there should be a beginner area that is separate from the veterans.


Every MOBA I've seen has an offline training or practice mode you can use to play against AI and learn your hero, or even just learn the game. DOTA also has co-op, where you can practice as a team of humans against AI, before you get to where it really matters. You can also use AI to fill in any empty spots on your own team.

Basically, MOBA is 5 vs. 5 on a single map. When you read about "lanes," those are basically primary paths between the two opposing bases, with strong and high damage towers on each lane for defense. Each side also produces "creeps," at regular intervals, which follow the lanes and attack the first enemy unit or structure they come across, with priority given to attacking units. Killing these creeps earns experience and/or gold. In DOTA, for instance, just being near an enemy creep when it dies gives you experience, even if you didn't kill it. If another hero from your team is also near, the experience is split, causing to gain EXP slower. If you score the final killing blow on an enemy, you earn a certain amount of gold for it. The point of the game is to push through enemy creeps and tower defenses to the enemy base and destroy it.
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"How do I get rid of a Trojan Horse?" -Sailor_Kakashi
"Leave it outside the gates of Troy overnight." -Davel23
#58LvthnPosted 6/12/2014 3:33:41 PM
KillerTruffle posted...
You're right - direct confrontation tends to happen later on, but there's a lot more to the early game than *just* grinding - even there, you should be working to deny the enemy EXP and gold as much as you work to earn it yourself. It's a pretty huge balancing act, actually, and involves quite a bit more than "mindless grind" the way you imply.


I specifically avoided embellishing it with words like "mindless" because that's the opposite of what it is. It's a stressful grind with the constant threat of one mistake tilting the rest of the match against you. It is a form of PvP, but an indirect, passive-aggressive PvP where you're really just trying to control resources.

In fact, 3-lane standard arena works well and is fun with a well coordinated group, because you can much more safely attempt moves that would otherwise be risky. Most folks aren't playing MOBAs in premades though, which is why I question why other modes haven't taken over as standard for solo play.

Basically I like the idea behind MOBAs and they're even pretty fun for a while but it's one of the more aggravating ways to get a PvP fix.
#59VeryDarkSoul(Topic Creator)Posted 6/12/2014 3:55:36 PM
I nearly fall asleep when I'm playing a moba. My favorite was Guardians of Middle Earth, but that died out. I find one or two characters I 'm good playing with, but then it quickly gets boring because almost every match is the same. I like how active my mind needs to be to play an RTS where you can't even blink. My mind tends to wander when playing a MOBA because it takes not nearly as much brainpower. For 20 seconds at a time I just watch my character walk to the next lane after healing up at base, etc. and yes I did good at that game, winning something like 75% of my matches playing with random teammates.
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#60DaedalusExPosted 6/12/2014 4:08:36 PM
Ugh, "MOBAs"? Do we really have to use that term? 'Multilayer online battle arena'... that more or less describes every PvP game ever. It's like they started with the acronym and worked backwards.