This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

An individual whos personality is defined by their sexuality....

#361DaedalusExPosted 7/5/2014 4:44:02 PM
r7gerrabbit posted...
But the gender roles are not. Those are entirely fabricated by the society you live in.


That is simply incorrect. Gender roles have at least some basis in biology, it is only the extent that is unclear.
#362SwcloudPosted 7/5/2014 5:04:40 PM
KingDFizzle posted...
Also, let's not forget the T in LGBT, how do you explain transgender individuals? Don't they feel like they were born into the wrong body? How is that possible if you aren't born with a gender?


Gender and gender roles are two different things. And clearly, gender roles are massively different depending on the society you live in.
This whole discussion came about when TC said men are biologically engineered to be more stoic and emotionally distant. I then explained why that was not true. I frankly find it quite limiting because then, I would not be a man at all (nor would I want to be under those conditions). I find gender roles to be quite a sad thing.
They are limiting and demeaning to anyone who doesn't fit them.
That's not to say there 0 difference between men and women (psychologically), but gender roles are entirely cultural.
---
Big announcement to make, I'm quitting gamefaqs forever. I have seriously had enough of you people. - krazyninjaman3
#363KingDFizzlePosted 7/5/2014 6:59:18 PM(edited)
Swcloud posted...
KingDFizzle posted...
Also, let's not forget the T in LGBT, how do you explain transgender individuals? Don't they feel like they were born into the wrong body? How is that possible if you aren't born with a gender?


Gender and gender roles are two different things. And clearly, gender roles are massively different depending on the society you live in.
This whole discussion came about when TC said men are biologically engineered to be more stoic and emotionally distant. I then explained why that was not true. I frankly find it quite limiting because then, I would not be a man at all (nor would I want to be under those conditions). I find gender roles to be quite a sad thing.
They are limiting and demeaning to anyone who doesn't fit them.
That's not to say there 0 difference between men and women (psychologically), but gender roles are entirely cultural.


When a transgender individual feels they are trapped in the wrong body, aren't they claiming that the gender role that society has assigned to them is incorrect? How did they get to be that way? They couldn't have been born that way, because you insist nobody is born with a specific gender role. Society, which by and large still overwhelmingly favors heterosexuality and encourages traditional gender roles in children, should have conditioned them to be accepting of the sex they were born with. Why the conflict, then? By your logic, any transgender person, or any homosexual male who acts feminine (thereby assuming a female gender role), or any lesbian who acts manly (male gender role), all learned their behavior. None of them were born that way. Society conditioned them to be the way they are.

(I realize not all gay men act girly and lesbians act manly. It's a generalization that very often holds true though and serves as an example)

As you can see, this is the exact opposite message the LGBT community wants to proclaim today. All we hear about is how homosexuals and bisexuals and transsexuals were born that way. If you are anti-LGBT (which I'm guessing you definitely aren't), then your position stands and there's no contradiction. If not, your theory on gender roles is entirely incompatible with the idea that LGBT individuals were born that way.

Also, you ignored my question about why animals have gender roles. Male and females of the same species do not act the same towards each other or their off spring. Why is that? Has animal "society" taught them that? Did they read a book as a pup/cub/tadpole that told them big boys play with GI Joes?
#364SwcloudPosted 7/6/2014 6:09:02 AM
I really don't see the big hiccup though...
Who you are psychologically and what role you are meant to play in society are two different things.
They often contradict themselves but no one acts 100% true to their gender role because there's a lot you're meant to be beyond your gender. You often play roles in your life, the student, the parent, the worker.
The same things are not expected of any of these roles yet they can be (and often are) played by the same person. You can be all those things.
I can't claim to understand the complexity of what goes through a transgender person's mind (it's often so complex they themselves are lost with it) but science tells us that that identity is immutable. It can't change and it is seeped deep into the person. The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation and identity is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change.
Beyond that... There's very little concrete that can be said.
---
Big announcement to make, I'm quitting gamefaqs forever. I have seriously had enough of you people. - krazyninjaman3
#365SwcloudPosted 7/6/2014 6:14:20 AM
KingDFizzle posted...
Also, you ignored my question about why animals have gender roles. Male and females of the same species do not act the same towards each other or their off spring. Why is that? Has animal "society" taught them that? Did they read a book as a pup/cub/tadpole that told them big boys play with GI Joes?


Animal psychology is beyond my understanding but from what I can gather, animals are purely instinctual. They reproduce, through some unknown means, the behaviour of previous generations.
It's NOT socialization like you'd find in human beings (aside from some species of apes who are very close psychologically to humans, we do study them a lot). We function very differently and much of our behaviour is learned socially rather than intellectually.
Humans are inherently social animals. The comparison doesn't really hold.
---
Big announcement to make, I'm quitting gamefaqs forever. I have seriously had enough of you people. - krazyninjaman3
#366SwcloudPosted 7/6/2014 6:22:11 AM
KingDFizzle posted...
They couldn't have been born that way, because you insist nobody is born with a specific gender role. Society, which by and large still overwhelmingly favors heterosexuality and encourages traditional gender roles in children, should have conditioned them to be accepting of the sex they were born with. Why the conflict, then?


While I understand the confusion here, the issue is much more complex than simply saying we are shaped purely by society. Barely any men fulfil the male gender role perfectly. If indeed all behaviour was learned, then wouldn't all men have the same personality?
That's the key mistake you made. You assume I mean that the behaviour you exhibit is:
A. always what society taught you and
B. that it always matches your interior psyche.

The truth is, the behaviour you exhibit and the one that is expected of you are often not the same. therein lies the conflict. The gender role is merely the face you show to the world (and often, your inner psyche is moulded through youth to fit what you perseve as the correct way to act) while your gender runs deeper than that. Gender roles and gender itself are two very different things.
---
Big announcement to make, I'm quitting gamefaqs forever. I have seriously had enough of you people. - krazyninjaman3
#367TehPwnzererPosted 7/6/2014 8:28:03 AM
"look at how liberal and progressive we are everybody! Introducing...the gay character in Dragon Age Inquisition who we specifically wrote to be gay first and made up an entire backstory to accomodate his gayness instead of writing him first as an honest person separate from his sexuality".

*que tons of praise from LGBT advocates who think that this kind of show and tell display of a homosexual isn't condescending and patronizing and doing more damage to the image of homosexuals that those who hate them.*
#368SwcloudPosted 7/6/2014 9:10:01 AM(edited)
TehPwnzerer posted...
"look at how liberal and progressive we are everybody! Introducing...the gay character in Dragon Age Inquisition who we specifically wrote to be gay first and made up an entire backstory to accomodate his gayness instead of writing him first as an honest person separate from his sexuality".

*que tons of praise from LGBT advocates who think that this kind of show and tell display of a homosexual isn't condescending and patronizing and doing more damage to the image of homosexuals that those who hate them.*


How do you know any of that is true? Gaider didn't say anything about making up a character around his sexuality but honestly, who cares what the genesis of the character was?
We'll see in game if the character's interesting.
Second thing, there was no "here's a gay character" thing. It was a 15 question community interview about one of the companions in the game and the fact the character's gay was mentioned as an aside in one of those 15 questions. Gaider even admitted himself he was hopeful this wouldn't turn into a controversy after a lesbian character was announced a while back to no controversy whatsoever (Sera).
Somehow, this turned into a whole big thing this time...
Go figure.

I'd also like to add how ridiculous the idea that a character can't start from wherever the hell it starts.
I mean, it's like when a writer needs a secondary character as a foil to his main character. He's going to ask himself: "Hey, I need a foil for my main character. I guess I'll write that". What you're saying is "he can't write the character as a foil because then he's forcing the character to be something just for the sake of it."
Of course he's going to do that. Sometimes it happens that you're writing a character and you realise halfway through that clearly your character needs to be something or it would make the story a million times better if he was but that's rare.
Most of the time, you write about something you want to write about.
Like now, David Gaider, a homosexual man, wants to write about what it's like to be a homosexual man so, big shock, the first thing he knows about the character he's writing is that he's a homosexual man.
Somehow, you're saying there's something wrong with that?
He should grow into it?
That doesn't even make any sense. He's writing about stuff, what that stuff is doesn't concern you. Either you like it or you don't. Obviously, he's doing it because he wants to do it.
It's like if I'm writing a teenage super hero and you tell me I shouldn't start with the fact my character is a teenager because that's just pandering to teenagers...
What about if I'm writing a middle aged superhero? Am I pandering to middle aged people? What if he's a man? Or a woman? Or a freakin' dog?
Obviously, I have an idea of what kind of character I want to write before I write it. How am I supposed not to?
---
Big announcement to make, I'm quitting gamefaqs forever. I have seriously had enough of you people. - krazyninjaman3
#369WyzeGye(Topic Creator)Posted 7/6/2014 3:24:00 PM
Shiang posted...
Swcloud posted...
KingDFizzle posted...
Veoris posted...
WyzeGye posted...
News flash: Men are biologically programmed to be emotionally colder and physically stronger than women. Women are biologically programmed to make and care for babies.


LOL you just lost all credibilty.

No such thing. It's all made up "studies" to get straight people like you to feel so "natural" and "normal" and nice and comfy with the way you're living. I swear it. (Which is, many times, poisonous. Truly, you should be worried about the **** some straight people are injecting into their children's minds. Which is the norm.)


Are people actually denying biological facts in this thread? Whoa........


Well, to be fair, and I haven't been following this discussion for the last 15 pages, but clearly, none of what Wyze said is a biological fact.
I currently study sociology in college and if there is one thing that is clear from everything I've learned, its that none of what he said is true. Those behaviours are learned.
You can look at some indigenous cultures who aren't affected by the social norm and, for some of them, its the complete opposite. Women are colder and more emotionally distant while men are the emotional care takers.
The truth is, there's nothing biological about it, its all cultural (except for the bit about physical strength).


Seconding this, as a student studying sociology and psychology. Men and women's roles are culturally defined. (Yes, men are physically stronger, but their emotional attitude is sociologically shaped, not biologically shaped).


No


Gender roles span species and are determined by hormones released in the body from the moment you're born.

It is fact that men are stronger and less in tune with their emotions. You could argue that it's a societal influence and you'd be partially right... But you're mostly wrong.
---
http://puu.sh/8IK8Q/8e25ebacb7.jpg [My Rig + Specs] - - - - http://youtu.be/cfh4MK6kW3w
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
#370SwcloudPosted 7/6/2014 7:33:38 PM
WyzeGye posted...
Gender roles span species and are determined by hormones released in the body from the moment you're born.


I already explained why that's not true. Common misconception but it simply doesn't apply to humans.
The proof can be seen in cultures (often indigenous because they are not influenced by societies at large) where we've observed a complete shift in gender roles from what we experience in society.
Plus, I don't think you understand what gender roles are...
They are the tasks, traits and characters assigned to genders. What is expected and socialised.
That's not hormonal in any way.
---
Big announcement to make, I'm quitting gamefaqs forever. I have seriously had enough of you people. - krazyninjaman3