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PC Gamer's best RPGs of all time

#101MarikhenPosted 8/1/2014 4:31:42 PM
Loshadt posted...
They consolized the series so goddamn hard that even some console players find it too simplistic.


Too simplistic in what ways? I'll grant that the lack of options in comparison to the other games is annoying, but I don't necessarily see that the lack of those options makes the game simplistic. To put it another way I don't see that any complexity added by many of the removed options was "good complexity."

If you want to talk about an Elder Scrolls making things "too simple" why not look at Morrowind which took out the (dis)advantage system in Daggerfall. How about Oblivion which took the d20 mechanics out of combat and made it so running yourself out of stamina wasn't A Very Bad Thing?

the world is tiny as hell,

http://i.imgur.com/B7rBN.jpg

Skyrim was approximately 66% of the size of Cyrodil but approximately 56% larger than Morrowind/Vvardenfell. However if you want to get down to brass tacks all three are "tiny as hell" as Daggerfall was something like 1,362x the size of all three maps combined.

It's as deep as a puddle,
the AI is dumber than a rock,

Both of these strike me as issues with the series, and even Bethesda games, in general, not just Skyrim. That doesn't mean that they aren't issues in Skyrim, but the way your post reads you're trying to suggest that Oblivion, Morrowind, Daggerfall, or Arena were somehow better than Skyrim in these regards.

it crashes like a one-winged plane,

That is a personal problem. While it might be a common problem among Skyrim's players, it's still a personal problem as it doesn't apply to everyone. I myself sank over 120 hours into vanilla Skyrim without serious issues I could directly, and correctly, attribute to the game.

it looks like ass

Compared to what?

and performs like the stuff that comes out of one,

And yet it still maintains higher frame rates than Crysis. :-)

no classes,

Classes were irrelevant. They might have determined your starting point as a character, but all too many people ended up maxing out every skill and attribute, and the custom "class" option let you recreate and even surpass all the pre-made classes. Let's the honest, the big difference between Skyrim and Oblivion or Morrowind here is that when you say your character is a Nightblade they don't have a little bit of text below their name proving it.

no attributes,

Those things that often "forced" people to power-level skills they didn't need or want to use in order to max them out? Those things that often screwed people up if they tried to play the game logically? The aspects of your character often rendered irrelevant due to (ab)using alchemy and enchanting? :-D

no spellcrafting...

IIRC Enchanting in Skyrim in better than Oblivion's without mods given that you can put in two effects to Oblivion's one. On the other hand Morrowind's Enchanting was a bit less restricted. Skyrim also introduced smithing, and while it isn't equal to spellcrafting it does help to somewhat make up for the loss.

Also, if you really want spellcrafting there is at least one mod to introduce it. Unfortunately that mod also involves a rather long, drawn out quest chain that doesn't start until after you do the mage's college chain, but meh.

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I won't say Skyrim was perfect, or even really deserving of being on any sort of attempt at a definitive "best ever" game list, but that doesn't mean I don't feel that a lot of people posting against it are being a bit silly.
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#102LoshadtPosted 8/1/2014 5:59:13 PM(edited)
Marikhen posted...
Too simplistic in what ways? I'll grant that the lack of options in comparison to the other games is annoying, but I don't necessarily see that the lack of those options makes the game simplistic. To put it another way I don't see that any complexity added by many of the removed options was "good complexity."

If you want to talk about an Elder Scrolls making things "too simple" why not look at Morrowind which took out the (dis)advantage system in Daggerfall. How about Oblivion which took the d20 mechanics out of combat and made it so running yourself out of stamina wasn't A Very Bad Thing?

I thought I outlined how it was too simplistic. No classes, no birthsigns, no attributes, a bunch of skills were consolidated, no spellcrafting, fewer spell effects, enchanting is far less complex, one pair of mutually exclusive factions, Lycanthropy might as well not exist for how much impact it has on your playstyle, Vampirism doesn't do much better and with the Dawnguard expansion it becomes even more trivial, and level scaling that defeats a large part of why you level up and explore in the first place. And while the in-game world is 56% larger you have to remember that Vvardenfell is infinitely smaller when shown on the actual map, but I'll give you that one anyway because Skyrim IS larger in game which is all that matters.

It's as deep as a puddle,
the AI is dumber than a rock,


Both of these strike me as issues with the series, and even Bethesda games, in general, not just Skyrim. That doesn't mean that they aren't issues in Skyrim, but the way your post reads you're trying to suggest that Oblivion, Morrowind, Daggerfall, or Arena were somehow better than Skyrim in these regards.

AI is an issue with the series, but you think they would improve it by 2011 as compared to a game from 2004. But depth has never been a problem with the series until Oblivion, and then Skyrim went even further than that.

it crashes like a one-winged plane,

That is a personal problem. While it might be a common problem among Skyrim's players, it's still a personal problem as it doesn't apply to everyone. I myself sank over 120 hours into vanilla Skyrim without serious issues I could directly, and correctly, attribute to the game.

If it's an extremely common problem it doesn't magically become irrelevant because "it works for me". Skyrim was and is notoriously unstable and buggy, anybody who says otherwise is just burying their head in the sand.
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#103LoshadtPosted 8/1/2014 6:00:02 PM(edited)
no classes,

Classes were irrelevant. They might have determined your starting point as a character, but all too many people ended up maxing out every skill and attribute, and the custom "class" option let you recreate and even surpass all the pre-made classes. Let's the honest, the big difference between Skyrim and Oblivion or Morrowind here is that when you say your character is a Nightblade they don't have a little bit of text below their name proving it.

Classes were not irrelevant. In Morrowind and Oblivion you did not have to raise skills irrelevant to your character just to be able to invest more points into the skills you wanted from the start, you picked your majors and minors and that's all you had to use to level up. So no, the only difference between the three is that in two of them you have to actually invest in building your character rather than doing whatever the hell you want because nothing matters.

no attributes,

Those things that often "forced" people to power-level skills they didn't need or want to use in order to max them out? Those things that often screwed people up if they tried to play the game logically? The aspects of your character often rendered irrelevant due to (ab)using alchemy and enchanting?

No, the only time you were forced to powerlevel was in Oblivion thanks to their garbage level scaling. And rather than fix (remove) their idiotic scaling system they just gutted a large part of the roleplaying elements because they're lazy and incompetent.


no spellcrafting...

IIRC Enchanting in Skyrim in better than Oblivion's without mods given that you can put in two effects to Oblivion's one. On the other hand Morrowind's Enchanting was a bit less restricted. Skyrim also introduced smithing, and while it isn't equal to spellcrafting it does help to somewhat make up for the loss.

It's hard to be worse than Oblivions enchanting system outside of gutting it completely. Smithing doesn't even come close to spellcrafting considering there's no customization, in Morrowind you picked your spell effects, their magnitude, duration, and the name of the spell. Smithing just involves making a piece of armor already found in the game and then being able to make it a bit stronger.

tl;dr: Skyrim is too simplistic and the RPG elements are too bare bones, especially in comparison to other games in its own series, and unlike Morrowind it didn't simplify things for any good reason outside of "stupid people will like it more"
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#104LOLIAmAnAltPosted 8/1/2014 6:04:40 PM
No love for Septerra Core :(
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#105codyorrPosted 8/1/2014 6:18:01 PM
Slideshow? NO. I heard about this from Tweed today at work and NO.
#106MasterTurtlePosted 8/1/2014 6:31:59 PM
Classes were not irrelevant. In Morrowind and Oblivion you did not have to raise skills irrelevant to your character just to be able to invest more points into the skills you wanted from the start


When do you have to do this in Skyrim?

not to mention you did have to grind skills irrelevant to your character to raise your attribute points. This was especially bad in Oblivion because if you didn't do it you were shooting yourself in the foot very hard

a bunch of skills were consolidated


This was something that needed to happen, Morrowind had far too many clutter weapon and armor skills and Mysticism was basically a clone of Alteration as the "does everything that doesn't fit into another category" school of magic.
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#107ChromaticAngelPosted 8/1/2014 6:42:17 PM
MasterTurtle posted...
When do you have to do this in Skyrim?


you had to before they introduced legendary skills.
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#108LoshadtPosted 8/1/2014 7:10:24 PM(edited)
MasterTurtle posted...
not to mention you did have to grind skills irrelevant to your character to raise your attribute points. This was especially bad in Oblivion because if you didn't do it you were shooting yourself in the foot very hard


Because Oblivion had idiotic level scaling, but it was not even remotely a problem in Morrowind. A bad level up in Morrowind just didn't put you in a much better spot, a bad level up in Oblivion can actually set you backwards.

This was something that needed to happen, Morrowind had far too many clutter weapon and armor skills and Mysticism was basically a clone of Alteration as the "does everything that doesn't fit into another category" school of magic.


Morrowind's weapon and armor skills made sense, at the very least it made more sense than completely removing: clubs, katanas, scimitars, crossbows (partially re-introduced in Dawnguard), throwing weapons, halberds, spears, and broadswords, removing medium armor, and changing what was once a skill for every type of weapon into "two handed weapons" and "one handed weapons". And removing Mysticism wasn't a big deal in Skyrim because they already removed the large majority of spell effects anyway, so it would have been barren.
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#109Chaos_MissilePosted 8/1/2014 9:12:32 PM
Askeladd posted...
Chaos_Missile posted...
Basically, the "best RPGs of all time according to PCGamer" were all only released post-2000


Ultima: Underworld (1992), Fallout 2 (1998), System Shock 2 (1999) and Planescape: Torment (1999).

Chaos_Missile posted...
Basically, the "best RPGs of all time according to PCGamer" were all only released post-2000, and all Western-made.


PCGamer. How many PC RPGs have come out of the east that aren't crappy MMOs?


Point taken
Though...PC RPGs.....AFAIK
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/935850-ys-origin/data
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/979866-the-legend-of-heroes-trails-in-the-sky

Thoses games were originally and exclusively PC before being ported.

Requiem posted...
Japanese don't release a lots of RPG for PC (and when it does, it's usually a port... not really a "PC" RPG).


My answer above also applies to you.
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#110MarikhenPosted 8/2/2014 10:03:50 AM
Loshadt posted...
I thought I outlined how it was too simplistic. ...


Classes never offered any exclusivity or real choice. They might have affected starting attributes and picked your primary/secondary skills for you, but that never affected the fact that you would need to raise X skills Y points to get +5 to attribute Z at each level up.

Birthstones function similarly to birthsigns and offer more flexibility which in turn can increase complexity.

While not all spell effects fell under the category of "dead weight" several of the removed effects were so. Why use damage/drain attribute/skill spells when you could absorb? Why absorb when you could kill? Why damage weapons/armor except to give you a chance to repair your own?

Enchanting, mutually exclusive factions, lycanthropy, and level scaling: All of these issues in in Skyrim are equal to or better than they are in Oblivion. You seem to be implying that these issues are solely in Skyrim or Skyrim is somehow the worst in the series for them, and that is false.

Loshadt posted...
AI is an issue with the series, but you think they would improve it by 2011 as compared to a game from 2004.

Honestly, I really haven't seen much actual improvement in the Intelligence part of AIs in the last 20 years. They might have more options available to them, but outside of "gimmicks" in games like Thief they've all been dumber than a sack of hammers.

Loshadt posted...
Classes were not irrelevant. In Morrowind and Oblivion you did not have to raise skills irrelevant to your character

In Morrowind and Oblivion you did "have to raise skills irrelevant to your character" to max out your attributes and your per level attribute increases. Having to max out the perk points in a given tree in Skyrim was not required, thanks to its level scaling, unless you were a min/max'er, and if you're looking at this from this perspective then honesty should compel you to admit that you had to do the same in previous games. Furthermore, thanks to "legendary skills" you don't even need to raise "irrelevant" skills in Skyrim anymore.

Loshadt posted...
So no, the only difference between the three is that in two of them you have to actually invest in building your character rather than doing whatever the hell you want because nothing matters.

"So no, the only difference between the three is that in one of them you actually got to play your character the way you wanted to without having to worry about doing everything else just to make sure your stats were 'good enough.'"

Loshadt posted...
Smithing doesn't even come close to spellcrafting considering there's no customization,

I do recall having stated that it somewhat made up for the lack of spell crafting, not that it "came close" or completely made up for.

Loshadt posted...
Skyrim is too simplistic ... "stupid people will like it more"

I might disagree with Bethesda's choice to remove character attributes, but even "smart" people felt that Oblivion and Morrowind both had problems with a leveling system whereby you were, or felt as if you were, being punished for picking your character's skills according to the way you intended to play it.

"Condensing" the skill trees, however, was bad form. I don't see that it reduced the complexity of the game, but it did remove options.
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