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PC Gamer's best RPGs of all time

#111Death_BornPosted 8/2/2014 10:15:14 AM(edited)
This list isn't really complete, it's missing a ton of good jRPGs and focuses mainly on wRPGs. Which makes sense, considering it's PC Gamer, but it can't really be said to list the best RPGs of all time.

Games that it's missing include
Mother 3
Chrono Trigger
Persona IV

...among others.

I would AT LEAST put Mother 3 and Chrono Trigger in the top 10, and Persona IV and Valkyria Chronicles EASILY knock out stuff like Torchlight or Dungeons of Dredmor. Heck, Zettai Hero Project was better than Dungeons of Dredmor.
#112youshallbeasgodPosted 8/2/2014 11:52:00 AM(edited)
I only agree with the top 3. The rest of the list is all over the place.
It's almost like the author said.
"Ok, I'll put Fallout, Baldur's Gate and Planescape first to shut up the oldschool murder club. Now I'll start listing the games that *I* like! Tee Hee!"
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#113GarquillPosted 8/2/2014 11:54:59 AM
if diablo 2 came out today it would be called complete garbage
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#114LoshadtPosted 8/2/2014 12:01:01 PM
Marikhen posted...
I might disagree with Bethesda's choice to remove character attributes, but even "smart" people felt that Oblivion and Morrowind both had problems with a leveling system whereby you were, or felt as if you were, being punished for picking your character's skills according to the way you intended to play it.

"Condensing" the skill trees, however, was bad form. I don't see that it reduced the complexity of the game, but it did remove options.


I never really felt that way about Morrowind, with the presence of both major and minor skills you had more than enough levels to get what you wanted out of your character, and since level scaling was almost nonexistent you didn't have to worry about getting left behind. I agree that the leveling system could have been better, such as getting points to freely distribute among your attributes rather than having to power level to get the very most out of your character and health scaling retroactively, but Skyrim's system went to the opposite extreme and made it even more imbalanced and frustrating. You're forced to dump everything into health from the get-go because magic doesn't scale like weapon damage, so if you only have 150 health by level 10 or so you're going to get shredded by anything that uses better spells than the most basic destruction spells, and boss enemies will rip you apart almost as fast.

What really concerns me though is what is going to happen to ES VI. Are they going to combine light and heavy armor into just "armor"? And reduce magic skills to "damage, heal, buff, misc"? Morrowind achieved a good balance between simplicity and variety, Oblivion was pushing it, and Skyrim went completely off the deep end.
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#115TheEntitledOnePosted 8/2/2014 1:14:41 PM
Mass Effect 2 isn't top 200. PC Gamer smoking that grade A s*** again.
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#116HighOnPhazonPosted 8/2/2014 2:25:41 PM
TheEntitledOne posted...
Mass Effect 2 isn't top 200. PC Gamer smoking that grade A s*** again.


More so than Diablo 3.
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#117therickmu25Posted 8/2/2014 2:26:39 PM
the_dracolich posted...
No Arcanum, VtMB too low, Diablo 3 instead of 2 (ugh), too much modern crap.

I rate the list 3/10.

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#118MarikhenPosted 8/2/2014 10:35:05 PM
Loshadt posted...
Skyrim's system went to the opposite extreme and made it even more imbalanced and frustrating. You're forced to dump everything into health from the get-go because magic doesn't scale like weapon damage, so if you only have 150 health by level 10 or so you're going to get shredded by anything that uses better spells than the most basic destruction spells, and boss enemies will rip you apart almost as fast.


Honestly, you're right in that there are mechanical issues that affected your choice of attributes to boost at level up, but I have to disagree that you were forced to pick health. My first character was relatively balanced between the three attributes, and between her play style, gear scaling, enchanting, and smithing, even without abusing them, I never once felt like I needed to pump health. Well, not once if I exclude every time I got one-shotted by a giant or a dragon insta-killed me at 50% health. -_- I don't necessarily consider those "normal" combat situations, and in the latter case I tend to consider it excessively cheap on the part of the developers.

The real issue, however, was that between magicka costs being reducible to 0% and power attacks being doable at 1 stamina there was no real reason to invest in anything other than health once you knew the system.

While introducing mods into a discussion about core issues in a game is generally bad form I would like to mention that there is at least one mod that does something to rectify that. It provides various bonuses to spells based on your magicka value. You get bonuses like 3% increase to Destruction damage and 1% cost reduction for Restoration per 10 points of magicka. Granted the default settings can be a bit OP, especially when once you hit 300-400 magicka Restoration spells become free, but it does help to somewhat address the issue of magicka being almost completely useless.

It's a shame that we have to go to mods for 33%-66% of the "core attributes" in a game to matter.

Loshadt posted...
What really concerns me though is what is going to happen to ES VI. Are they going to combine light and heavy armor into just "armor"? And reduce magic skills to "damage, heal, buff, misc"? Morrowind achieved a good balance between simplicity and variety, Oblivion was pushing it, and Skyrim went completely off the deep end.


While I agree on the variety issue I can't really agree on the simplicity issue, but at this point I rather expect it's more due to having a significantly different point of view on the matter than anything else. I don't see that making a game simpler to play is the same thing as making the gameplay simpler. In the same fashion I don't see that making a game more difficult to (stand to) play makes the gameplay more difficult.

Cases in point are how I don't see that attributes and skill balancing while leveling necessarily made Oblivion or Morrowind any more complex than Skyrim and how I don't view pumping NPC (of/de)fensive values makes the game harder. They merely make the game more complex/difficult to play without making the gameplay any more complex/difficult.

Then again it should probably be noted that I took to EVE Online like a duck to water and had no issues whatsoever with figuring out how to play it. http://mmoreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/LearningCurve1.jpg was not me by a long shot.
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#119tiki203Posted 8/3/2014 6:56:49 AM
therickmu25 posted...
the_dracolich posted...
No Arcanum, VtMB too low, Diablo 3 instead of 2 (ugh), too much modern crap.

I rate the list 3/10.


This. I stopped taking it seriously when I saw south park (although I do like it) and torchlight 2
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#120Epicness2012Posted 8/3/2014 2:52:31 PM
TimePharaoh posted...
Epicness2012 posted...
Gotta love the butthurt Skyrim haters on GFAQs


Yea people who know what they're talking about upset me too.


>TimePharaoh

Loshadt posted...
Epicness2012 posted...
Gotta love the butthurt Skyrim haters on GFAQs


Bethesda deserves nothing but crap for Skyrim. They consolized the series so goddamn hard that even some console players find it too simplistic. It's as deep as a puddle, the world is tiny as hell, the AI is dumber than a rock, it crashes like a one-winged plane, it looks like ass and performs like the stuff that comes out of one, no classes, no attributes, no spellcrafting...

The list just goes on. And what scares me is that they might have dumbed it down past the point of no return, because if they make ES VI any more complex they risk losing the casuals they were trying to attract in the first place.


Aside from maybe AI, pretty much just opinions and personal issues.
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