Geass R2 Ending Discussion

#261Celiss GalveaPosted 10/22/2008 1:02:00 AM
My slow posting skillz means I didn't actually see the newer posts before posting... again >__> <__<;; Whoops. Er, don't mind me, carry on...

I'll get off my lazy ass and work on the 1st half of Okouchi's CONTINUE interview now, before the 25th rolls around and I end up with more things to translate with the release of the R2 The Complete guide book.

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Currently playing: The World Ends With You (going nowhere)
Currently reading: ICO
#262theflowofchiPosted 10/22/2008 1:09:50 AM

AmuroNT1 | Posted 10/22/2008 12:57:10 AM (#260)
In regards to the first, I thought I remembered Charles making a comment around Turn 20 that he had Marianne's body preserved until such a time as she could use her Geass to get back into it.


It said that in the gg-translation i recall too (ep 21, in his explanations to Lelouch); but Celiss's point about Ragnarock making the preservation of her body unnecessary seems to point to a hole.

bleh, here i pulled it from script
Charles: I also had the body of Marianne secretly transferred.
Marianne: As long as my body remains, there's a possibility for me to return to it.

pretty solid inference from marianne's statment.

AmuroNT1 | Posted 10/22/2008 12:57:10 AM (#260)
Regarding the second, didn't the novels say that Lelouch gave Genbu information about the Glasgow in exchange for canceling the marriage?


I seem to recall this too (in my mind it was simply information on KFs), and i thought it was Celiss that told us this (O_O) heh, i simply equate all spoiler/side information as coming from Celiss, since she is our spoiler goddess.
#263theflowofchiPosted 10/22/2008 1:22:04 AM
Gamefox addon is nice, but using quickpost makes me miss a lot of updates now too =/

Most important unresolved plotline is WHO IS ARTHUR, REALLY?

Not just who is Kallen's father, but where is he now, or where has he been for the past year even.

Also, will Jeremiah go around ungeassing all those w/ lasting geasses, like poor Carve-tan.

Not that i really care either, but what about Anya's family?

Celiss Galvea | Posted 10/22/2008 12:50:35 AM (#258)
- Who C.C. had been dreaming of in Stage 11 <-- Unresolved mystery or scrapped plotline? You decide


ugh, that really makes me sad again for the way CC's story/development turned out. ;_;
#264AmuroNT1(Topic Creator)Posted 10/22/2008 2:39:31 AM
I think what's really annoying about all the dangling plot threads and dropped storylines is that they've said "This is the end; no sequel". That means, unless they release a massive tell-all sourcebook or Series Bible, we're never going to know this stuff.
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GnBS/KoC/GFAMG/FAITH/Junk Guild/DPBT
Geass doesn't suck just because you dont pay attention. -aguero
#265avocado_sushiPosted 10/22/2008 2:40:43 AM
Hn, there's no way you can force anyone to think anything.

But you can sure push an issue in order to hopefully get people to think something. And it certainly helps when your cause is backed by cannon..(Or at least, logically, it should help. But that's logic. Logic holds no place in denial. ;/ )


Got your point.. but please don't be too frustrated if it didn't turn out as you hope. Remember there is always Yeah, things like Lelouch vi Britannia is dead but L.L or R.R is somewhere in this world. idea (borrow your quote, pink chan. Thanks :P) that you can't deny completely, not in Geass universe where immortality is a possible thing to achieve. I should add that many of them are not even Lelouch fans so why would they be in denial? They brought some good points which are still debatable such as Jeremiah's reaction and the die-first-to-activate-the-code thing. (This theory came to my computer screen as early as Turn 22 or 23, if I remember correctly. They didn't just make it up after Turn 25 to support Lelouch being alive.)

Anyway, that said. I admit that I hope those who believe Lelouch is still alive use their brain to back it up with good points and spare the room for his being dead for good as well. I usually frowned when I saw posts like "HE'S ALIVE. HE INHERITS HIS FATHER'S CODE AND NEEDS TO DIE FIRST TO ACTIVATE IT. HE IS NOW WITH C.C. BECAUSE NUNNALLY SAW THOSE FLASHBACKS(wrong) THANKS TO THE CODE POWER HE HAS(wrong again, didn't you say he needs to die first? He was alive at that time)"

Maybe Sunrise should just make the special episode featuring Lelouch's funeral with 1 month passed and his dead body is still in the coffin just to end all the fuss.


They've admitted in the Perfect Stage mook interview that they had to drop the Suzaku+Geass plotline and turn him into "just" a superhuman between S1 and R2 because "it got too complicated". That was a rewrite, and shouldn't be counted as part of the "mysteries unresolved" list, IMO, because as far as the staff members are concerned there is no longer any mystery there.

I see. Too bad that to viewers, they are still "unresolved mysteries" or even plot holes because the hints were already inserted in the story but just gone unexplained. Especially Suzaku & Geass; it's too obvious a hint to just discard the answer. I feel fine for hints dropped in all interviews and audio commentaries as they haven't been materialized into the show yet. But..well, whatever, they're all in the past now. Thanks for the list, by the way. ;) I have been making one myself for a long time but it's never complete until now.

- Why Charles's hair turned out the way it did <-- Biggest mystery of all

LOL. Agreed!! For some reason, reading your line makes me want to see Lelouch with long, curly hair (curly, not ROLL^^;;) Is there any such fanart of him? I think his hair must be curly if he leaves it long because his mom, his dad and his sister all have curly hair.
#266Celiss GalveaPosted 10/22/2008 2:51:48 AM
A chaotic and shocking final episode. What becomes of the world now?

-----Congratulations on the completion of "Code Geass"!! It was a shocking final episode; did you have a difficult time writing it, Mr. Okouchi?

Okouchi: No. The last episode wasn't difficult at all; in fact, it was the middle parts of R2 that turned out to be rough going. For the final episode, [I'd/we'd] already decided on the ending when writing the script for the first episode of the previous series. Episode 1, Episode 25 (Episode 1 and the final episode of the previous series) and episode 25 of R2 -- these episodes did not deviate much from our original plans.

-----When did you submit the script for the final episode?

Okouchi: In May, 2008.

-----So it was pretty smooth sailing.

Okouchi: That's true. Still, it takes quite a bit of time animating what's in the scripts for "Code Geass", so I wanted to have finished writing [the scripts] earlier, to be honest.

-----How did you feel right after the completion of the scripts?

Okouchi: I wasn't really aware of it, but I suppose I was sentimental about it in my own way. The sub-series compositionist, Mr. Yoshida, told me "This is the first time I've read a lyrical script from you, Mr. Okouchi." It's not about the contents, though; the flow of the writing -- the stage direction had a lyrical touch to it. Where I'd usually write "And Lelouch turned around.", I wrote in the style of "Lelouch turns around. His face is brimming with melancholy." instead. Suzaku, wearing Zero's mask, shows up in the middle of Lelouch's parade... the succession of scenes in that climax was written in a lyrical manner.

-----I'd like to ask some questions about the shocking end: in the climax of the second half of the series, the person standing in Lelouch's way was his brother, Schneizel. Under normal circumstances, without there being a war, [Schneizel] would have been a wise ruler, wouldn't he?

Okouchi: Had Lelouch only not existed, I think that, in Schneizel's lifetime, at the very least, there would be an end to war. However, he does not have "emotions", or rather, he has nothing possessing him. This is why he is incapable of creating a "tomorrow".

-----Still, isn't it possible that defeating the wise ruler Schneizel, the person who was supposed to have brought order to the world, might lead to some [viewers] interpreting it as a Bad End?

Okouchi: That's true. There are probably a lot of people who think of it as a Bad End, a tragedy, considering the protagonist's, Lelouch's end as well. However, Lelouch says in the first episode: "Only those prepared to be shot are allowed to pull the trigger themselves." If you were to think of that as his pride, then I think his getting shot (killed) in the end was a logical end. Of course, I understand that not all of the viewers will accept this ending. There were people who wanted a happier ending, after all.

-----Was there a dispute among the staff members regarding the ending?

Okouchi: No. It was decided fairly naturally. During the "Code Geass" script meetings, there are many cases in which there were a number of disputes, but there were barely any when it came to the scripts for (the previous series's) episode 25 and the final episode. I think everyone felt the same when it came to the end of the character that is Lelouch.

-----Why were you so bold as to choose this ending when the viewers might see it as a Bad End?

Okouchi: Bold... yes, we were so bold as to chose this ending. Perhaps the show that is "Code Geass" ending up this way was decided the moment Director Taniguchi and I teamed up. I suppose you can call it our sense of aesthetics, or perhaps a part of our psychological makeup.


<cont'd>
#267Celiss GalveaPosted 10/22/2008 2:56:45 AM
-----Would it be possible for you to elaborate on this?

Okouchi: In the intial planning stages, "Code Geass" was being developed as a show meant to be aired in an evening slot. The contents [of the show back then] were completely different as they are now; it was more of a regular mecha show, and the protagonist was an exceptional pilot.

-----However, the time slot shifted from an evening slot to a late-night one.

Okouchi: That's right. At that point, we already had the structure of the series [completed], and the script for the first episode had also been written. Which is why even with the time slot change being final, "This show is plenty interesting, it'll do fine in a late-night slot", "We've already come this far, let's just go ahead with what we have" had been the general consensus. While it was certainly true that we didn't have much time, I was against it. There are shows and strategies more fitting for late night slots, and when I expressed this, I found that Director Taniguchi felt the same way. Even though it was difficult, and there was no guarantee of it being a success, [I/we] decided to create a different project more suitable for a late-night slot.

-----At that time, Lelouch and the Geass...

Okouchi: Did not exist. However, the things we'd already discussed regarding the project and the results of our research did not go to waste, of course.

-----This reminds me of Lelouch's line in the final episodes of "R2": "It may be difficult, but even so, I want a better tomorrow."

Okouchi: I hadn't realized it when I wrote those lines, but it certainly describes our [real life] situation. To go back to the drawing board obviously means a lot of time and effort, and moreover the chances of it failing were high. Even so, I thought it would be better for it to become a better show. To put it in a cool-sounding way, we chose a "tomorrow" we hadn't seen yet over "today". Having completed the scripts and watched the visual product anew, I thought that the mentality of the creators end up reflected in their works. At the same time, I was both surprised and happy to find that the same applies to me.

------I see. So Lelouch's decision was also your, Mr. Okouchi's, and Director Taniguchi's decision.

Okouchi: Which is why I think of both our and Lelouch's decision as Happy Ends. I believe that there will be better things in the tomorrow awaiting Nunnally, Kallen and the rest who have been left behind. And surely Lelouch, who was able to make this into a reality, can only be happy [about this].

<To Be Continued>

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Currently playing: The World Ends With You (going nowhere)
Currently reading: ICO
#268Celiss GalveaPosted 10/22/2008 4:12:19 AM
The Tyrant Emperor Lelouch: A Modern Day Hero Figure?

-----How long have you been involved [in the project], starting from the time spent on the evening slot project, and ending with the completion of "Code Geass"?

Okouchi: About 5 years, from the planning itself and up until the airing of the final episode. This year marks the 10th year since my debut as a scriptwriter; this is the longest I've ever been involved in a project, I think, and I doubt I'll ever come across anything like it ever again.

-----In the first episode of "R2", Lelouch declares: "I'm not the one at fault; the world is." In other words, "Code Geass" is the story of the side attempting world domination, isn't it?

Okouchi: It's the opposite of your usual anime set-up, isn't it? A demon king instead of a hero. The leader of Evil instead of the ally of Justice. I think this set-up was made possible thanks to the shift to the late-night slot. If it had been an evening slot, we wouldn't have received the "OK" for this. Although starting with "R2" the show is now being aired in an evening slot, it only came to be because of the results obtained in its late-night slot. The set-up being a complete 180 meant it was something worth doing for me, as a scriptwriter, and it was fun. There being nothing else like it, it's impossible to predict what's going to happen next week. In my opinion, it being an original work was an advantage, and we were able to make the most out of it. If it had been based on a pre-existing work, you'd inevitably find out what's going to happen next.

-----I've heard that Lelouch, the character who was eventually labeled The Tyrant Emperor, was born from the results of careful research. Is this true?

Okouchi: It's true that it came in handy for Lelouch's character, too, but the research was actually done during the planning stages. It's not like we went to Akihabara, or asked the readers of anime magazines what kind of anime they want to watch, though. It was more general; we researched what the younger generations of today are thinking, and what it is they wish for.

-----Can you give some specific examples of what you did?

Okouchi: There [is a / are] magazine(s) in which the lyrics of recent songs are compiled. [I/we] bought [it / those] and checked out which words are often used and what sort of theme was more prevalent. We polled school teachers as well, and that was informative, too. I've heard that Mr. Taniguchi visited schools for research purposes during "Zettai Muteki Raijin-oh", but this was the first time I did it.

<cont'd>
#269Celiss GalveaPosted 10/22/2008 4:13:28 AM
-----What did you ask about?

Okouchi: Values, mostly. What's "cool" in their eyes? What can they never forgive? Things like their future dreams, and what the teachers feel has changed between now and back then. Having heard their answers, I felt that things have changed since my time. At the same time, I thought that there were things that have not changed much, like the universal feeling of wanting to be acknowledged, and the impatience and the idealistic views the young possess. This show, "Code Geass", embodies the modern spirit, and although the set-up is the complete opposite of your usual anime, that is exactly why, as a story, it has all the right ingredients. Lelouch's enemy is his father, he treasures his family (younger sister), and harbors righteous indignation against the world...... Whenever youths are mentioned in the news, there is a tendency to put the spotlight on only a certain group of the them, like those who are arrogant or violent. In actuality, the ones giving up their seats to the elderly on trains are, more often than not, young people, and not middle-aged men and women.

-----Now that you've mentioned it, Lelouch, too, is kind towards the weak. After all, the reason Shirley fell in love with Lelouch was because she saw him help an elderly [couple] in trouble.

Okouchi: Helping the weak is the characteristic of a hero, and it's an aesthetic value that hasn't depreciated over time. However, I think that setting out in a showy manner, defeating the powerful who are abusing the weak, and being thanked by the weak in return is the "cool" thing in the past, while the heroes of today are "cool" because even when they've saved the weak they simply leave in a cool manner, and don't make a big deal out of it.

<To Be Continued>


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Currently playing: The World Ends With You (going nowhere)
Currently reading: ICO
#270Celiss GalveaPosted 10/22/2008 6:54:46 AM
Lelouch and Suzaku: The Ultimate Relationship

------In "Code Geass", there exists a powerful, special power known as the Geass: "if you look into your opponent's eyes, you can make him/her carry out your command once and only once." However, Lelouch wasn't over-dependent on it, and overcame his problems using tactics and strategies instead. It didn't become just a superpower show, which made it distinctive from the rest.

Okouchi: If I were to explain this from the perspective of the character settings [we came up with], the power that is the Geass was an unknown power to Lelouch. He had no idea how long the effects could last, so it was dangerous [for him] to be over-reliant on it. Lelouch is a character with a skeptical side to him, you see. He does not consider the idea of fighting with just the Geass as his weapon. On the other hand, explaining this from a creator's point of view, this show has supernatural powers, scheming politics, mecha, school [life], mysteries..... [I/we] wanted to make this a show that can be enjoyed on many different levels, which is why we didn't turn Geass into an invincible power. This is why it has a one-use-per-person limit, and has no effect against enemies in Knightmares.

------Now that you mention it, Lelouch is weak when it comes to mecha battles. A mecha show with a protagonist who isn't a brilliant pilot was a refreshing change.

Okouchi: In the scriptwriting stages, he actually had average skills, but the [other] staff members, beginning with Mr. Taniguchi himself, joined in and it ended up like that. That's what's interesting about the group effort that is anime [productions].

-----Lelouch doesn't undergo the [character] growth most mecha anime protagonists go through. There are no special moves to remember, and it's not like his mech powers up either.

Okouchi: In Lelouch's case, the expansion of the Black Knights serves as [his character growth]. From the very beginning, it has been a fascinating aspect of the show, a small organization expanding with every victory, and various commanders coming to lend a hand like in the Annals of Three Kingdoms or as in the case of Oda Nobunaga. I wanted to introduce this flavour to this show, too. Consider it the pleasure of seeing your deck of cards grow, if you will.

-----I suppose it feels like "Pocket Monsters" or trading card games to today's highschool students.

Okouchi: Something like "I tap Zero's card and hereby summon Staff Officer Diethard's card." (laugh)

-----When watching "Code Geass", one gets the feeling that Lelouch's growth as a character has nothing to do with using the Geass or the strength of his mech, but rather the psychological strength he obtains. Even when he's facing "the deaths of many people", he takes it all in.

Okouchi: "Code Geass" has, in a manner of speaking, all the essentials of a stereotypical story about growing up that has been around forever. A young boy who has nothing obtains a power one day, goes up against the world and ultimately surpasses his father. The decision Lelouch made in the end was one he could make because of what he experienced in the preceding 50 episodes. It was because of his psychological growth, and not his physical growth or the development of his abilities.

-----I think many viewers thought there would be a Geass battle with the Emperor at the end.

Okouchi: This was something we discussed in the early stages, but we didn't want to end the show with mysteries or mysterious powers. The final enemy being real world enemies, Schneizel and Nunnally, and not those related to the Geass, the Emperor and Marianne, had to do with our not wanting to have Lelouch conclude his battle in another dimension. [I/we] wanted [the show] to end with a battle between humans, and Lelouch's decision as a human being.

<cont'd>