infight INCREASES damage of HTB cannon

#1LeeDerLanPosted 12/6/2012 6:28:16 PM
i wanted to contribute a little to these boards because if you're a fanatic like me,
you'd probably want to know EXACTLY what factors into an attack.

i wanted to konw whether or not INFIGHT boosted the damage of the HTB cannon, and suprisingly, it DOES.

with ryusei's ace bonus (TK dmg +10%), a fully upgraded TK burst slash, and a fully upgraded hyper twin launcher, but NO INFIGHT, the HTB cannon's damage ranks at 10,720

however, with ryusei's ace, a fully upgraded TK burst slash & hyper twin launcher and additionally 9 levels of in-fight, the HTB cannon does an increased 11,000.

if you want to increase the damage even further, then an additional 9 levels of gun fight (on top of 9 levels of infight) increase the damage to 11,350

of course, if you wanted to pump ryusei with 9 levels of infight, gunfight, then you'd have to sacrifice SP regen (which, strategically speaking isn't very sound), assuming you wanted that last skill slot for attacker, which theoretically should produce the absolute, strongest attack possible in the game.

i realize most people already understand that infight and gunfight boost damage of melee and ranged respectively, but i believe it has always been unclear since original generation 1 whether or not combination attacks factor in gunfight and infight for final damage calculations.

the purpose of this thread was to show that increasing in-fight levels does affect the damage of the HTB cannon which is actually a RANGED combination attack.

i'm sure i'm not the only one who finds this rather awkward, but it makes sense considering the damage of HTB cannon is dependent on the final damage value of a melee based TK burst slash.

just to add further insult to injury, giving Mai 9 levels of gunfight (on top of ryusei's 9 levels of infight/gunfight) spike the damage up to 11630.

i hope this helps other HTB cannon fanatics, i was never a fan of sanger & elz--ratsel's combination attack.

now to end with a question, would it be better for ryusei or for mai to initiate the HTB cannon attacks?
this is of course considering you have latooni, alfimi, ring, and radha enabling and hoping them (for valors) from afar.
#2ZoneseekerPosted 12/6/2012 11:50:22 PM
Assuming the character guide is correct, Ryusei because of his Ace Bonus. Mai lacks a Love Bonus in this game so Ryusei should win damage wise. That and he can use Zeal while Rai uses Valor for easier SP usage (since Ryusei does not need to use his Valor).

Tempted to check OGs and OG Gaiden to see if Infight will increase HTB Damage. Won't have to sacrifice Attacker or SP Regen there as well since in those games you can replace Potential and Focused Attack.
---
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
#3LeeDerLan(Topic Creator)Posted 12/7/2012 1:41:22 AM
ahh ok thanks for the info, if only mai had a love bonus then i would use her more, but i still need to get her enough PP for 9 levels of gun-fight XD

this is off-topic, but i realize that Shine's ace bonus is essentially worthless..

after carefully giving her specific kills (grunts that give less than 3 pilot points) while aiming for 35 masteries, i finally got her to 50 and was assuming that she would earn 20% more money in addition to her natural 1.2x (from fortune) gains.

however.. after blessing her and blessing another non-fortune character and testing on the same grunt, they both end up gaining the same money. how disappointing -__-

so basically, there is absolutely no reason to give shine any kills other than her combination attack, or making her a pure cheer/bless unit.. am i right?
#4jonnovision1Posted 12/7/2012 8:03:33 PM
it increases HTB cannon indirectly, TK Burst Slash is melee, and thus receives up to 450 extra damage from In-Fight, and the stronger TK Burst Slash is, the stronger HTB Cannon is
---
"Reinforcements? I am the Reinforcements."
#5redtide1962Posted 12/7/2012 11:36:42 PM
Although the base damage increase looks like increasing Gunfight & Infight on Ryusei would be the most efficient use of your PP, that is not the case at all. Even for weapons with ~3000 base attack power, increasing the pilot's ranged attack stat will produce several times higher amounts of damage for the same PP cost put into whatever level of Gunfight you can reach. Obviously HTB Cannon is well above that amount of base damage, so there is no way that Gunfight/Infight can possibly produce more damage than more points into the pilot's respective attack stats.

What it does do, however, is also increase the other pilot's (Mai, in this case) damage. So the best argument to make would be that spending however much PP on a particular level of Infight for Ryusei would amount to more because Mai also benefits from that base damage increase, but this can be counted because of how many attacks you will make with each character.

If you were limited to only Zeals, both characters would get two attacks apiece and the total EN cost is 400, which is reasonable with equipment parts and cheap EN upgrades for both mechs. The result would be that, in terms of maximizing damage when four attacks are made, two from Ryusei and two from Mai, the damage increased by putting points into Ryusei's ranged stat instead of putting it into Gunfight needs to be about twice as much. Fortunately, this is the case because of the ridiculous base damage that the HTB Cannon already has. Points into his Ranged stat should far outweigh the minor damage increase both pilots get when you put it into Infight (or even Gunfight). Furthermore, if you were to Enable Ryusei even once, it should be obvious that increasing his ranged stat is better for that turn. Less obvious would be the truth which is that even if you don't Enable, or even if you only attack once with Ryusei in a turn, putting points into his Ranged stat will still give you more damage.

For Mai, on the other hand, although you get more damage from her by increasing her own ranged attack stat, the fact that Ryusei will be attacking several times more often than her under usual circumstances makes it reasonable to put points into her Gunfight skill, although she really needs to have Ryusei attacking at least four or five times in order to actually outweigh her own ranged stat from herself attacking twice (once and then once more with Zeal). At this point, however, the EN and SP pools become more of a problem than the actual damage dealt, so it should be up to the user to determine whether any of this is actually important or not.






my bottom line is that the pilot's ranged attack stat is a more efficient use of PP than putting points into Gunfight or Infight for Ryusei, because this produces more damage until the stat is maxed out (at 999) than putting even one level of Gunfight/Infight would. So if you are looking to get the most actual damage out of your PP, you are better off putting your pilot points (nearly ALL of them, the only exception is the 80 required for Attacker) into the Ranged stat. For Mai, for the largest possible single-damaging attack with limited PP, giving her Gunfight would give the biggest number when Ryusei attacks, while increasing her own Ranged attack stat would give more total damage dealt.
#6redtide1962Posted 12/7/2012 11:52:32 PM
I used to think Shine was a terrible combat pilot, but I find that her mech is really, really usable and reliable without upgrades. Since she's the pilot of it and gives it the combination attack, it is reasonable to use her because of that alone. It also takes up one deployment slot for a combat unit without taking up another for a support/backup unit there just for her spirits, so you get two for one in that regard as well.


Latooni is better, but honestly the difference between the two is just the final damage that they make with their attacks. Latooni's damage is considerably higher than Shine's, but all of the other areas they might as well be equal. This is not the pilot's fault, but the power of the mech that they each pilot. The mech is dodgey and durable enough to avoid heavy combat which covers shine's major weaknesses, and can produce enough damage accurately enough to make her a powerful unit on par with the rest of your team and with Latooni as well. The only glaring difference is the damage dealt. Latooni might be doing 50% more damage than Shine vs some high armor targets. However, I feel that this isn't too bad, because if a pilot can hit accurately with or without Focus, dodge with or without parts/mobility upgrades, and even take a hit (or three) well without Guard then they're good enough for combat to me, and Shine comes with a more than powerful enough, well-rounded mech usable for almost any purpose but heavy aoe wave clearing and a skillset that includes loads of the major conveniences in her Spirit list while also having 3/3 dual supports that few can boast about.

Great mech that covers her weaknesses (accuracy, ability to take a hit, ability to deal damage)
Great spirit list with SP to spare for heals and cheers
Great 3/3 support skills that few can brag about

so yeah, shine is pretty good in my book
#7LeeDerLan(Topic Creator)Posted 12/8/2012 2:26:49 AM
thank you redtide, for the detailed response :D