RE: What exactly does it do? *spoilers*

#1_Shuyin_Posted 9/21/2012 1:38:11 PM
Wanted to post in the topic, but it's been archived.

Anyway, it was said that each clone of Lorenzo share the same memories as the former and are all essentially the same guy, but with a different name.

Ok, I get that. It also makes it clear what Riccardo meant when he told Fiona that she would "give birth to (him) all over again".

Two questions:

1) If all Riccardo wanted from Fiona was to give birth to another Lorenzo/Riccardo/Ugo clone - how exactly does it help Riccardo? I mean, would he take control of the new clone or what?

And would he have intercourse with her, and her baby would automatically be another clone? Or would they put a cloned egg (or whatever) inside of her and she would birth the clone? Again, I can't see how a clone would help Riccardo. It would just be like Lorenzo making Riccardo/Ugo all over again.

Or does he intend on taking the clone's Azoth? Like Lorenzo does to Riccardo after his death?


2) Something that confuses me is one of Lorenzo's lines near the ending of the game. He says

"The great Aureolus Belli once said, "The most valuable thing in this world is the Great Truth."

Isn't Lorenzo's full name "Aureolus Lorenzo Belli"? Is he quoting himself?
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"Your effort is for naught. How long do you plan to keep this up?"
~Haunting Ground
#2EnetirnelPosted 9/21/2012 10:03:33 PM
_Shuyin_ posted...
Wanted to post in the topic, but it's been archived.

Anyway, it was said that each clone of Lorenzo share the same memories as the former and are all essentially the same guy, but with a different name.

Ok, I get that. It also makes it clear what Riccardo meant when he told Fiona that she would "give birth to (him) all over again".

Two questions:

1) If all Riccardo wanted from Fiona was to give birth to another Lorenzo/Riccardo/Ugo clone - how exactly does it help Riccardo? I mean, would he take control of the new clone or what?

And would he have intercourse with her, and her baby would automatically be another clone? Or would they put a cloned egg (or whatever) inside of her and she would birth the clone? Again, I can't see how a clone would help Riccardo. It would just be like Lorenzo making Riccardo/Ugo all over again.

Or does he intend on taking the clone's Azoth? Like Lorenzo does to Riccardo after his death?


2) Something that confuses me is one of Lorenzo's lines near the ending of the game. He says

"The great Aureolus Belli once said, "The most valuable thing in this world is the Great Truth."

Isn't Lorenzo's full name "Aureolus Lorenzo Belli"? Is he quoting himself?


1. Either a new clone given that Fiona was born from a clone (and Ayla is a tad suspicious to say the very least) then essentially yes, the same personality could be given down to the baby essentially having a clone of "Aureolus Riccardo Belli" or a new Azoth source. Alternatively, he could just use the baby to sepearate Fiona's Azoth and contain it within the artificial womb (with the Fiona clone in it) to keep it pumping out Azoth until he gets the amount needed to repair the damage and general lack of Azoth.

But even then, it may not end up working properly given Riccardo was the incorrect/broken clone...

2. Lorenzo isn't quoting himself. If you check the graveyard, you see multiple graves labeled "Aureolus Belli", the middle-name is what they refer to specific ones as.

So, for this current line of the clones it would have been -

Aurelous Belli (Original)
Aurelous "///" Belli (down to the 12th)
Aureolus "Lorenzo" Belli
- Ugo Belli
- Aureolus Riccardo Belli

Difference between Riccardo and Ugo's names are that Lorenzo hadn't been sure as to which clone was the incomplete one (he ran out of Azoth) and he trained Riccardo to inherit the title of Aureolus.

However, Ugo was the true one. After Riccardo killed Ugo, he then proclaims himself as the "original" (i.e. inherited the title of Aureolus and essentially all skills, memories of the original Aureolus Belli 13 generations before him).

Ugo didn't care about alchemy for the most part, so if he had turned out to be the one without the Azoth then the whole game wouldn't have ever happened. (Though what was written on the CT Wikia is still off and is nowhere to the level of rage Lorenzo was in).
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He burned... He melted... He died. So blunt huh, Hewie?
#3EnetirnelPosted 9/21/2012 10:16:42 PM
Continuing on from my last post...

When you enter into one of the secret alchemy rooms, the note there is by the original Aureolus Belli. It's pretty clear that by the time Lorenzo and his sons/clones came around that the original... Though also given some certain lines, notes in the game as well as the title... it seems like the original Aureolus may have actually been Paracelsus. But the notes say that he was brought to the castle by it's master to look for eternal life (the castle's master may be the skeleton in the torture chamber) and hints at Aureolus taking over the castle and assuming the masters name.

As the first name and Aureolus were often interchanged resulting in "Aureolus von Hohenheim", so if he kept the switched name and took the castle's master's surname that would explain a decent amount of the game given the names of keys and certain organs focused on within the game.

Also with that alchemists would have been hunted, Paracelsus was also exiled a few times and that if he was also being hunted by the chuch and/or rumoured assassins' hired by the church (which was a rumour as to how Paracelsus died) though it's also entirely possible that the following generations of Aureolus were also other master and also unknown alchemists that went by aliases like say... Fulcanelli given that Paracelsus was multilingual and traveled throughout Europe and that in-game texts reference multiple languages.

Sorry for the ramble. I just find the whole alchemist bits fascinating.
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He burned... He melted... He died. So blunt huh, Hewie?
#4_Shuyin_(Topic Creator)Posted 9/22/2012 8:36:07 AM(edited)
Oh wow, all this time I assumed Lorenzo was the original. But yes, I do remember seeing that grave in the graveyard.

Ok, judging by how active you are on this board and your obvious love for this game, I'm sure another question won't annoy you:

About Lorenzo - after Riccardo's death, he sucks out his Azoth, right? (Your comments make it sound like Riccardo had no Azoth, but then what was he removing?)

Assuming it was Azoth, it seems (from what I've seen) that it was that very thing that de-aged Lorenzo after he was revived from being crushed.

I'm assuming the method of dying and coming back to life is the "Wet Method" he speaks of? To be honest, the whole wet/dry method kinda goes over my head.

Now if all Lorenzo had to do was die to de-aged to a man of his 20s, why did he choose to stay as a feeble old man for so long, instead of simply offing himself and getting revived? Was it because Riccardo's Azoth (assuming he has some) was greatly more than he could've obtained through other means (such as the animals that we brought to the castle) and simply wasn't able to until Riccardo kicked the bucket?

That must be the reason, as Young Lorenzo could've GREATLY aided Fiona throughout the game, instead of Old Lorenzo who passed the occasional note.

Also, just to add to this a bit, IF Lorenzo needed Riccardo's Azoth to get young again, why did he wait for Fiona to kill him instead of killing himself right after sucking out Riccardo's Azoth? Was Lorenzo unaware that dying would revive him into a stronger, younger man?

Seems odd since I always assumed Lorenzo was the wisest of them all.


BTW, are you suggesting that the corpse in the torture chamber could be the original Aureolus Belli?
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"Your effort is for naught. How long do you plan to keep this up?"
~Haunting Ground
#5EnetirnelPosted 9/22/2012 11:08:32 PM
There are multiple graves with multiple dates on them, all of them are labeled as "Aureolus Belli" when you examine them.

I'm more than happy to answer questions.

Riccardo had incomplete and unstable Azoth (as seen with his body cracking and decomposing), he was having to manufacture small amounts of Azoth in order to continue living.

Lorenzo had perfect Azoth, but even with that he didn't want to continue getting older and more immobile than what he already was (and the Azoth keeping his body in decent shape is evident with how he stalks Fiona later on in the game. He's quick and can be fairly strong depending).

Lorenzo would need additional Azoth in order to regain his youth and essentially immortality (because, remember he had to use some of his own Azoth to create Ugo & Riccardo).

The methods of the Azoth to what I understand (they were never written down), are what I believe to be based on writings of the manufacture of the The Philosophers' Stone. To what we could assume that when the Stone itself was originally manufactured, those that had it created Azoth (which would be the chemical reaction that continues the effect of the stone once a large enough or long enough exposure has been given).

The Dry Method (also known as Ars Brevis, Via Secca or also The Royal Path), or essentially the short and less expensive path in contrast to the Wet Method, the Dry Method relies on fusions, the Wet Method (also known as Ars Longa, Via Umida relies on solutions.

The Wet Method is much more costly, dangerous, expensive and overly tedious. The Dry Method however has faster results, but it's much harder to try and control and it's more dangerous than using the Wet Method.

They are however, just two ways to get to the same outcome. Riccardo and Ugo were made using alternative methods. Ugo with the Wet Method and Riccardo with the Dry Method - which made Riccardo's body much more unstable than Ugo's.

Hopefully that makes sense there. Anyway.

So, Lorenzo took back the portion of Azoth he gave Riccardo (Riccardo couldn't take Ugo's Azoth as it passed onto Fiona) but it takes a while for one's body to actually process the Azoth. Would have worked faster due to Lorenzo already having a constitution of it.

He would have also gotten the impure Azoth from Riccardo, which could have also made his body unstable (the impure and unstable animal Azoth) which can explain the sudden de-aging jumps in contrast to a single, controlled rejuvenation after having his body become damaged and the cellular activity (cellular degeneration begins at the age of 25, so it would have kickstarted production and with that his body would have repaired itself after becoming damaged. Easiest example would be on Doctor Who, when the Doctor is nearly fatally injured he can regenerate in a sense).

Lorenzo wasn't going to help Fiona either way. He hated her, just as he hated her mother, Ayla. He was still in a rage about Ugo as well.

He was playing games with Fiona, Riccardo (namely Riccardo because Riccardo was being a PITA to him and because the whole family feud issue in the past and Lorenzo being greedy... He ordered Daniella to release Fiona and you can see Daniella's hand in the intro).
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He burned... He melted... He died. So blunt huh, Hewie?
#6EnetirnelPosted 9/22/2012 11:53:03 PM
Continuing on from my last post again... Wasn't sure if I'd have enough space to write the next part up.

Well, Lorenzo was fairly immobilized, Riccardo was also hunting for Lorenzo (why there's that cutscene of Riccardo beating Daniella to try and get her to say were Lorenzo had been creeping around in secret areas of the grounds, and to send a warning to Lorenzo that he wasn't going to get the perfect/pure Azoth out of Fiona).

If Lorenzo also had Daniella, he could sit back and wait for her to do the work... But as you'll notice - Riccardo started blocking the pathways to the castle and main mansion to keep Lorenzo out (and to also stop Hewie from stealing his ingredients from his experiements as Hewie most likely could sense or tell in general what Riccardo planned to do to him and eventually Fiona when she was brought in. Hewie was the main reason the majority of the areas were sealed off and Lorenzo managed to sneak into the castle whilst Riccardo and Debilitas were busy trying to find the ingredients Hewie hid and to eventually capture him. (You can see this in the Opening when Debilitas is called away). But he eventually leaves the area.

Daniella vanishes for a few points in time, most likely having to go out to the House of Truth after Lorenzo gave Fiona a misleading scrawled memo through the hole in the wall as Riccardo was sealing off areas to keep Lorenzo out. Had Lorenzo come out of the H.O.T. Riccardo would have most likely killed him.

Lorenzo only manages to sneak back in to leave Fiona a note (most likely while Riccardo was making the solution to make himself invisible to Fiona, so he wouldn't have been paying attention whilst he was waiting for a few days for her cycle to start, he would have just kept her drugged like he had before).

Lorenzo was probably wary about dying just in case he didn't have enough Azoth remaining after his experiments and cloning to revive him in case he died. Which is why he chose to get the remainder of his Azoth, the impure (or I'll just call it) the False Azoth from the animals out of Riccardo as a precaution given that Fiona isn't so scared and she's clearly not stupid so the closer she got to him, the higher the odds are that she would turn against him entirely due to Riccardo's actions in the forest .

As for not killing himself after taking the Azoth and False Azoth back, it's mentioned in the games and information that the creation and absorption of Azoth takes time. It would have been faster had he obtained the full, pure Azoth out of Fiona but it took a little bit longer due to the unstable nature of the False Azoth.
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He burned... He melted... He died. So blunt huh, Hewie?
#7EnetirnelPosted 9/22/2012 11:53:50 PM
Last part of this post...

And the corpse isn't the original Aureolus, but mentions the original at some extent (his age at this point is unknown).

The first journal is of the lord/owner of the Castle, the second is from the original Aureolus and the later ones are of the clones of Aureolus.

Which shows how they all share the same line of thought. Given the second entry, Aureolus must have made his first clone then, so I would have assumed he may have been quite old aged at that point in time. The later two entries were done by the clones. The 1944 one came from Aureolus Lorenzo Belli and would have been a couple of years before Ugo was made. Ugo eventually "betrayed" Lorenzo and eventually fled, after Ugo betrayed Lorenzo, Lorenzo quickly made the second clone - Riccardo using the Dry Method (for it was quicker).

But because Riccardo is incomplete, he looks older than Ugo is. The Azoth (from the official Japanese info) is passed down by parthenogenesis... But there is a bit of suspicion regarding her mother. No real information on her in the official Japanese information sadly.

But due to the constant cloning, Ugo didn't need to be the original in order to pass the perfect copy cellular data down (which is part of what that's causing my suspicion regarding her, but that's another story) to poor, unwitting Fiona. She has the original's knowledge, memories and the like which is why she can work the alchemy production machines by sheer luck. Anyway, regarding the master of the Castle...


Pile of Journals

February 8th, 1784

I have decided to summon that renowned master alchemist to the castle.
There is talk that the count has used a technique known as the "dry methood" to obtain
eternal life. Some may consider it sacrilege, but with the lord's thankless cooperation, I will base my research off any findings obtained through their generous sacrifices.

November 16th, 1822

Eternal life obtained through the power of the dry method seems to carry no side effects.
As it stands, the Lord is showing no effects of aging. Even though his skin is cracked,
his flesh rotten, and his entrails liquefied, it appears that death will not be visiting him
any time soon. However, I will carry on with my research... After all, in my case, time actually is on my side.


I hope this makes a bit more sense now that I've explained the methods a bit.
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He burned... He melted... He died. So blunt huh, Hewie?
#8EnetirnelPosted 9/24/2012 9:15:49 PM
If you or anyone else has any other questions, I'm happy to try my best to try and answer them.

I do hope my response for the last one and explanation of the methods' made sense. >_<;
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He burned... He melted... He died. So blunt huh, Hewie?