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Will we still see "now loading" screens on next gen consoles?

#21Silent Sniper IVPosted 4/6/2013 11:00:39 PM(edited)
TheBlueStig posted...

SSD's are not cost effective at all, and most likely never will be, IIRC it takes something like 3 months and 800 steps to make those chips in a $2 Billion dollar facility.

When it comes to a cost per megabyte comparison, disc based storage systems will always win out.


Haha, you're seriously talking about cost-per-megabyte on a 360 forum? How much did we have to pay for a 120gig MS hard drive again, when the same price was snagging us terrabytes elsewhere? Thats why I'm saying give us the option to use our own. Someone on tom's installed one in a PS3 and saw instant performance upgrades. Instead of terrible proprietary hard drives, let us choose if we want to pay more for higher quality. I certainly have no problem doing so.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/playstation-ps3-ssd-upgrade-loading,11811.html

It's not exactly breaking the bank to buy an SSD. I snagged a 250gig for about $100 from newegg last time there was a sale. It gets cheaper and cheaper every year.
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Irony is a maginot line drawn by the already condemned
#22Super CreaturesPosted 4/6/2013 11:01:06 PM
Silent Sniper IV posted...
when the same price was snagging us terrabytes elsewhere?


With the required partitions and software for backwards compatibility support, and any other features that might require the hidden partition?
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R.I.P. Eve English (Feb. 12, 1968 - Oct. 13, 2010)
Momma Eve, you will be missed.
#23TheBlueStigPosted 4/6/2013 11:07:59 PM
Silent Sniper IV posted...
It's not exactly breaking the bank to buy an SSD. I snagged a 250gig for about $100 from newegg last time there was a sale. It gets cheaper and cheaper every year.

Sale prices =/= regular prices.

Sale prices also do NOT change the cost to manufacture those chips, which later gets figured into the price.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
#24Silent Sniper IVPosted 4/6/2013 11:11:45 PM
Super Creatures posted...
Silent Sniper IV posted...
when the same price was snagging us terrabytes elsewhere?


With the required partitions and software for backwards compatibility support, and any other features that might require the hidden partition?


Why would creating a partition in your hard drive and downloading some software cost like a hundred dollars extra? That takes like, 5 minutes and the user can do it themselves. Doesn't backwards compatibility with 360 games work without a hard drive installed? I swear I remember playing crimson skies while I waited for mine. Didn't the 2010 dashboard software upgrade allow us to use non-periphery devices anyway, aside from large drives because, "piracy"? I refuse to believe this is a legitimate technical hurdle that couldn't be easily overcome.
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Irony is a maginot line drawn by the already condemned
#25TheBlueStigPosted 4/6/2013 11:15:48 PM
Silent Sniper IV posted...
Super Creatures posted...
Silent Sniper IV posted...
when the same price was snagging us terrabytes elsewhere?


With the required partitions and software for backwards compatibility support, and any other features that might require the hidden partition?


Why would creating a partition in your hard drive and downloading some software cost like a hundred dollars extra? That takes like, 5 minutes and the user can do it themselves. Doesn't backwards compatibility with 360 games work without a hard drive installed? I swear I remember playing crimson skies while I waited for mine. Didn't the 2010 dashboard software upgrade allow us to use non-periphery devices anyway, aside from large drives because, "piracy"? I refuse to believe this is a legitimate technical hurdle that couldn't be easily overcome.


Original XBox games do NOT work without the HDD, the emulator to run those games is on the hidden partition.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
#26Silent Sniper IVPosted 4/6/2013 11:27:47 PM(edited)
TheBlueStig posted...
Silent Sniper IV posted...
It's not exactly breaking the bank to buy an SSD. I snagged a 250gig for about $100 from newegg last time there was a sale. It gets cheaper and cheaper every year.

Sale prices =/= regular prices.

Sale prices also do NOT change the cost to manufacture those chips, which later gets figured into the price.


So? Replace 100 with 200 if you want. You're not addressing any of the points except, "Better technology costs people more to buy than old technology." Also, It *is* dropping in manufacturing cost, drastically. It's been made cheaper to manufacture about 4 times since 2008 through new techniques. The most recent was just about 6 months ago, and thats when a flood of cheaper SSDs hit the market, and sales on them started becoming more frequent.

The key to lower cost per gigabyte is lower manufacturing costs and with new and smaller transistors the NAND flash manufacturers will be able to reduce costs further. SanDisk has already revealed that it will introduce 19nm NAND flash this year and Intel is expected to introduce a new series of SSDs dubbed King Crest that will use 20nm NAND flash in Q3.

http://www.nordichardware.com/Storage/ssd-prices-dropping-1-dollar-per-gigabyte-in-2012.html

TheBlueStig posted...

Original XBox games do NOT work without the HDD, the emulator to run those games is on the hidden partition.


So why can't I use a secondary hard drive to load everything else much faster, or simply give up backwards compatibility completely? Or, download a patch? It's not hard to create a partition and download software. They sell consoles without *any* hard drives who also can't play BC games, so surely that's not a dealbreaker.

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Irony is a maginot line drawn by the already condemned
#27TheBlueStigPosted 4/6/2013 11:30:16 PM
Silent Sniper IV posted...
TheBlueStig posted...
Silent Sniper IV posted...
It's not exactly breaking the bank to buy an SSD. I snagged a 250gig for about $100 from newegg last time there was a sale. It gets cheaper and cheaper every year.

Sale prices =/= regular prices.

Sale prices also do NOT change the cost to manufacture those chips, which later gets figured into the price.


So? Replace 100 with 200 if you want. You're not addressing any of the points except, "Better technology costs people more to buy than old technology." Also, It *is* dropping in manufacturing cost, drastically. It's been made cheaper to manufacture about 4 times since 2008 through new techniques. The most recent was just about 6 months ago, and thats when a flood of cheaper SSDs hit the market, and sales on them started becoming more frequent.

The key to lower cost per gigabyte is lower manufacturing costs and with new and smaller transistors the NAND flash manufacturers will be able to reduce costs further. SanDisk has already revealed that it will introduce 19nm NAND flash this year and Intel is expected to introduce a new series of SSDs dubbed King Crest that will use 20nm NAND flash in Q3.

http://www.nordichardware.com/Storage/ssd-prices-dropping-1-dollar-per-gigabyte-in-2012.htm


None of that changes the fact that it still takes 3 MONTHS and 800 steps in a hyper-clean facility to make those chips.

Platters for regular HDD's can be made faster for cheaper.

Using an SSD as a default drive for a console would guarantee the price going through the roof. That's something that they would never just eat the cost on.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
#28Silent Sniper IVPosted 4/7/2013 12:02:57 AM(edited)
TheBlueStig posted...

None of that changes the fact that it still takes 3 MONTHS and 800 steps in a hyper-clean facility to make those chips.

Platters for regular HDD's can be made faster for cheaper.

Using an SSD as a default drive for a console would guarantee the price going through the roof. That's something that they would never just eat the cost on.


I never said to make it the default, I said to let us choose what we wanted instead of being locked into a terrible proprietary drive again :3. What I'm seeing while skimming is the exact opposite, that it's in fact much easier and requires less in environmental conditions and robotics than traditional HDDs, and thats why something like 90 new companies started manufacturing them in the last 2 years. Maybe you're thinking of the 2008 40nm versions that used to cost upwards of $4-5 a gig? They have becoming increasingly smaller, cheaper, and easy to manufacture almost every year since 2008. A lot of companies started mass production of SSDs back in 2010-2012ish. They might take a long time to make, but they're being churned out at a pretty solid rate since so many people started making them.
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Irony is a maginot line drawn by the already condemned
#29Silent Sniper IVPosted 4/7/2013 12:17:25 AM(edited)
Found some hard numbers from a memory summit. LSI/SandForce alone have shipped over 10 million SSD controllers since 2010 and they're currently shipping over 1 million per month since the last manufacturing methods evolution, and even companies just getting started like kingpsec over in china claim to have the capability to make 3 million SSDs per month. I think we're ok on the mass production front
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Irony is a maginot line drawn by the already condemned
#30Super CreaturesPosted 4/7/2013 3:40:45 AM
Silent Sniper IV posted...
Why would creating a partition in your hard drive and downloading some software cost like a hundred dollars extra?


Licensing for that software.

The same reason the media remote for the original Xbox cost however much it did (more than a standard remote like it typically is), the price is used to pay the license fees for the software used (the original Xbox could not play DVDs unless you had the receiver for the media remote connected to the system).

Just like you pay extra for a system with Windows already installed, versus buying a system that has nothing installed, you're paying extra for the licenses for the included software.


It isn't as simple as "oh, anybody can do it so it shouldn't cost them," you are paying the license fee for included software.

Anybody can build their own PC and install their own software, so does that mean companies shouldn't make pre-built systems and charge extra for them?

Should I be able to go out and buy one of those pre-built systems and not have to pay for the licenses for the included software?


I am almost certain one of the biggest reasons for proprietary, higher cost HDDs is the BC software, which you are paying a license fee for, it isn't just a greed based "oh, people will pay it, so lets charge them the same amount as they could buy an HDD 5x as big for."
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R.I.P. Eve English (Feb. 12, 1968 - Oct. 13, 2010)
Momma Eve, you will be missed.