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Games in USA = Product. Games in Japan = Art

#41NintendologicalPosted 5/10/2013 1:15:04 PM
Such mendacious statements about American/Western games! Myst, Scribblenauts, Bastion, LiLi and Minecraft alone are evidence enough to refute your asinine statements about which country produces games that emphasize aesthetics and culture over commodization. You reference Final Fantasy as art, but it remains one of the most linear, stagnant and dated RPG franchises in the industry, which is part of the reason why each successive iteration sells fewer copies.

And I'm not sure how Asura's Wrath qualifies as art since it is primarily an on rails QTE-fest that suffers from the same hyper-kinetic mish mash that makes Dragon Ball Z so mundane after a while. Interactive anime-esque cinematics ("episodes") hardly comprise art, unless you are referencing Warhol-esque pop art. But I'd rather have a masterpiece like De Nachtwacht from Rembrandt than a Campbell's Soup can from Warhol. You keep your Japanese "art" and I'll stick with my American/Western masterpieces.
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"Your uncle was so dumb he paid the full price of a new PS2 to rent it for a week? Your family tree must be a straight line" - Finlandia
#42Lightning_fanPosted 5/10/2013 1:19:17 PM
Nintendological posted...
Such mendacious statements about American/Western games! Myst, Scribblenauts, Bastion, LiLi and Minecraft alone are evidence enough to refute your asinine statements about which country produces games that emphasize aesthetics and culture over commodization. You reference Final Fantasy as art, but it remains one of the most linear, stagnant and dated RPG franchises in the industry, which is part of the reason why each successive iteration sells fewer copies.

And I'm not sure how Asura's Wrath qualifies as art since it is primarily an on rails QTE-fest that suffers from the same hyper-kinetic mish mash that makes Dragon Ball Z so mundane after a while. Interactive anime-esque cinematics ("episodes") hardly comprise art, unless you are referencing Warhol-esque pop art. But I'd rather have a masterpiece like De Nachtwacht from Rembrandt than a Campbell's Soup can from Warhol. You keep your Japanese "art" and I'll stick with my American/Western masterpieces.


Wait so Scribblenauts, MineCraft, LiLi, and Bastion emphasize culture?

FF is art... How is it the most stagnant and dated RPG franchise when nearly each recent entry changes the battle system?
All of the games aforementioned can be described as art because what is and is not art is vague. Hell pong could be considered art.
#43Robin_MaskPosted 5/10/2013 1:52:02 PM
Lightning_fan posted...
Nintendological posted...
Such mendacious statements about American/Western games! Myst, Scribblenauts, Bastion, LiLi and Minecraft alone are evidence enough to refute your asinine statements about which country produces games that emphasize aesthetics and culture over commodization. You reference Final Fantasy as art, but it remains one of the most linear, stagnant and dated RPG franchises in the industry, which is part of the reason why each successive iteration sells fewer copies.

And I'm not sure how Asura's Wrath qualifies as art since it is primarily an on rails QTE-fest that suffers from the same hyper-kinetic mish mash that makes Dragon Ball Z so mundane after a while. Interactive anime-esque cinematics ("episodes") hardly comprise art, unless you are referencing Warhol-esque pop art. But I'd rather have a masterpiece like De Nachtwacht from Rembrandt than a Campbell's Soup can from Warhol. You keep your Japanese "art" and I'll stick with my American/Western masterpieces.


Wait so Scribblenauts, MineCraft, LiLi, and Bastion emphasize culture?

FF is art... How is it the most stagnant and dated RPG franchise when nearly each recent entry changes the battle system?
All of the games aforementioned can be described as art because what is and is not art is vague. Hell pong could be considered art.


I wonder what you think of FFXIV.
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#44WiiareVenomPosted 5/10/2013 5:51:33 PM
Aris a product.
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#45shawnmckPosted 5/10/2013 6:01:48 PM
The thing about Art is that it is subjective.
Meaning that not everyone is going to agree on what is aesthetically or artistically appealing or unappealing.
So the TC's logic is completely flawed.

And Yes, Western games are every bit as much "Art" as are Japanese games.
If you can't see that, then you are completely & utterly biased and ignorant.
#46jakethenoobPosted 5/10/2013 6:26:35 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29
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#47NintendologicalPosted 5/11/2013 1:35:43 AM
Lightning_fan posted...


Wait so Scribblenauts, MineCraft, LiLi, and Bastion emphasize culture?

FF is art... How is it the most stagnant and dated RPG franchise when nearly each recent entry changes the battle system?
All of the games aforementioned can be described as art because what is and is not art is vague. Hell pong could be considered art.


Scribblenauts offers the user the chance to think of solutions that are broad and not linear or singular. While mundane solutions are acceptable, the game promotes imaginative and grand thinking to generate novel solutions. Minecraft emphasizes exploration both within the game itself and metacognitively by getting players to rethink the assumed limitations of a 1x1 block as a building tool. You are literally challenged to overcome that restriction and create seemingly impossible works and structures.

LiLi redefined the action adventure genre by affecting a shift in the way we think of combat. The non-violent combat mechanic promotes new ways to explore conflict in a video game, because lets face it, most video games outside of puzzle games and simulations are based on conflict. Lastly, Bastion ably balances cinematic aesthetics via elaborate narration and vibrant graphics, without undermining the intrinsic nature of a game (something you play, not something you watch).

These games emphasize culture because they focus on intellectual advance both of the player playing the game and of the art form itself by rethinking conflict, narrative, resolutions and challenge/difficulty. Final Fantasy is a linear game that emphasizes narrative over gameplay, which would be excellent if Final Fantasy excelled at promoting gameplay while advancing story telling. Unfortunately, the gameplay is trite and the narrative too consuming and disruptive of the gameplay experience.

Final Fantasy isn't a bad series, bit it hardly promotes culture (art and other manifestations that display human intellectual achievement) and is as much a watered down sequel fest as Madden and Call of Duty. Wile I believe that games CAN be art, I am against the idea that games ARE art, because that falsely assumes that all games are art. There are Japanese games that are art, and the TC named only one (Okami).
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"Your uncle was so dumb he paid the full price of a new PS2 to rent it for a week? Your family tree must be a straight line" - Finlandia
#48beastwarkingPosted 5/11/2013 1:47:07 AM
Art is art - art doesn't need to be pretty to be art. Then again, what is art? If it's something that can appreciated, does that constitute as art? I drew a stick figure once, is that art? Probably not but my parents appreciated it. Point is, that art is in the eye of the beholder or something like that. In the case of videogames, both east and west are trying to maximize profits through interpreting market trends. If one group sees it as creating some new ways to view gaming like in Okami, or others might see it as pushing the limits of realism liek in Crisis - in the end it somewhat relies on what they expect the market to represent.
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#49TheAnalogKid06Posted 5/11/2013 2:55:05 AM(edited)
jakethenoob posted...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29


This. I love how the TC conveniently forgets to mention the Bioshock and System Shock series, Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, the Fallout series, the Mass Effect series, FC3: Blood Dragon, Amnesia, nearly every Valve game, KOTOR (not the MMO), TWD Telltale series, Baldurs Gate, GTA, RDR, the Batman: Arkham games, etc.

Western developed games have been steam rolling Japanese developed games this gen with a few exceptions such as Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Smash Brothers Brawl, Xenoblade, the Souls series, Twilight Princess, MGS4, MGS: Peacewalker. Three of my favorite Japanese developed series have gone to crap this gen and those are Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, and Silent Hill.
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#50Mako_eyesPosted 5/11/2013 3:07:57 AM
US itself is a product, so everything that's made there is a product too.