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#181dudupupuPosted 10/5/2012 10:01:32 AM
Gatchan2 posted...
dudupupu posted...
Stanger5150 posted...
dudupupu, RELIGION DID NOT INVENT MARRIAGE!

/caps

Seriously, Christianity cannot take ownership of something that predates it.


I didn't say Christianity did; God did. God predates all things!


Yeah but who made God


God is without cause.

If this sounds absurd, please consult atheism's recent and original argument(s) that assume:

1) the world is/was eternal
2) there are an infinite number of universes that, by chance, pooped our life-giving globe into existence.

We are left either to believe that:

1) the material world can give birth to itself eternally by means of natural laws that aren't there without nature to govern
2) some NON-PHYSICAL entity OUTSIDE of the universe created it all

Sure, both are outside the realm of human comprehension, for all we know is bounded by our human experience and we have experienced neither. However, philosophically:

1) there is no REAL such thing as an infinite number of physical realities. Infinity is an abstract concept that doesn't exist within human experience

2) If is logical to presuppose X for the existence of Y, but we cannot logically presuppose X for the existence of X.

3) Abstract things don't "cause" anything, but rather describe things. Numbers or physical laws cannot "create" anything, and a personal force is necessary to do so.

4) If I write a book and give it to you, you don't need to know what/who made me in order to believe that I made the book, correct? While I've struggled with the "who made God?" question as you have, I have learned that it doesn't bear relevance to my decision to trust in God as the Creator of all things. In fact, the OT description of God has always been wrought in eternity. There are no contradictions. In fact, philosophically, some eternal first cause MUST be the case, or else all of our assumptions in origin break down. We MUST assume that either God is eternal or that the world is eternal; as supernatural as they both are, we know the world cannot be eternal.
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Jesus the Christ - the perpetual novelty through which humankind can remain constantly challenged to think, love, and, ultimately, LIVE. We are born dead.
#182bob15xPosted 10/5/2012 10:03:08 AM
hockeybub89 posted...
bob15x posted...
Take your religious crap and stick it.

Religion is man made, not created by God, if it was there would be one religion.

Religion is for the weak minded, the easily preyed up and manipulated.

Religion is one of the biggest evils in the world created my man to control others.

Faith on the other hand is a personal belief and that is all that matters.


If you can't accept people being religious, you are just as much a bigot as any other bigot. I don't know why people never realize that. Religion is not evil. How some people twist religion for their own gain is evil.


I can accept people being religious, but I also accept they are weak minded and being controlled by others, told how to think and what to believe.

that is fact.
#183hockeybub89Posted 10/5/2012 10:07:31 AM
That is nowhere near fact. If it being used as mind control, it is being used wrong. And it has been used wrong more times than can be comprehended.
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#184dudupupuPosted 10/5/2012 10:08:24 AM
bob15x posted...
Take your religious crap and stick it.

Religion is man made, not created by God, if it was there would be one religion.

Religion is for the weak minded, the easily preyed up and manipulated.

Religion is one of the biggest evils in the world created my man to control others.

Faith on the other hand is a personal belief and that is all that matters.


Interesting, if you do research into the various world religions at play, you find that in a sense, there IS only one religion from which all others spring forth.

Much in the same way that Christianity has given birth to various interpretations and sects of faith, so, too, do the ancient texts known as the OT/Torah/etc. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity (as well as their various segments), all take root in same origin documentation.

Even more interestingly, the more philosophical religions (lacking a unifying concept of God, pantheistic, but still concerning morality) such as Buddhism even set forth VERY Christian doctrines of morality. There are various rituals and ways in which people pay respect to "God," but ultimately, their hearts are tied to the same moral framework that God provides.

Am I suggesting they are all "right?" No, because as the last poster said, people twist things for self-gain (Matthew 24:5), and it would naturally follow that some ideas are injections of personal bias and such.
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Jesus the Christ - the perpetual novelty through which humankind can remain constantly challenged to think, love, and, ultimately, LIVE. We are born dead.
#185dudupupuPosted 10/5/2012 10:11:59 AM
bob15x posted...
hockeybub89 posted...
bob15x posted...
Take your religious crap and stick it.

Religion is man made, not created by God, if it was there would be one religion.

Religion is for the weak minded, the easily preyed up and manipulated.

Religion is one of the biggest evils in the world created my man to control others.

Faith on the other hand is a personal belief and that is all that matters.


If you can't accept people being religious, you are just as much a bigot as any other bigot. I don't know why people never realize that. Religion is not evil. How some people twist religion for their own gain is evil.


I can accept people being religious, but I also accept they are weak minded and being controlled by others, told how to think and what to believe.

that is fact.


Here's a dilemma you face:

If man created Christianity to become powerful, WHY is it founded in the notion that remaining meek and humble is virtuous? Why create a religion that limits your own access to pleasures, while affording them to your enemies (the Christian faith, for example, doesn't allow us to steal from the rich)? Why create an invisible man who holds a club over you heard at the ready to bash you should you falter?

Why do people purposefully and intentionally practice abstinence, when we all know that bad things feel alot better than good things?

You call it weak, but that's the very definition of "strength."
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Jesus the Christ - the perpetual novelty through which humankind can remain constantly challenged to think, love, and, ultimately, LIVE. We are born dead.
#186Grandy12Posted 10/5/2012 10:13:18 AM
dudupupu posted...
Am I suggesting they are all "right?" No, because as the last poster said, people twist things for self-gain (Matthew 24:5), and it would naturally follow that some ideas are injections of personal bias and such.


What if some other religion is correct, and christianity is the one that got twisted?
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#187Grandy12Posted 10/5/2012 10:14:55 AM
bob15x posted...
I can accept people being religious, but I also accept they are weak minded and being controlled by others, told how to think and what to believe.


When was the last time you double-checked anything someone with the title of "doctor" told you?
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Relevance is a prerequisite for cleverness. ~ LHS_2012
JUS: 4382-1831-2782 Brawl: 4382 7053 3006
#188Grandy12Posted 10/5/2012 10:22:38 AM(edited)
dudupupu posted...
If man created Christianity to become powerful, WHY is it founded in the notion that remaining meek and humble is virtuous?


I know that one.

Because the ones who created it are not the ones who believe in it, or at least the ones who twisted it aren't so.

Suppose you keep telling someone to be meek otherwise something horrible will happen to you. At the same time, you may not be meek, because you don't believe that. Will have a clear advantage over that person.

If we were to look from an objective point of view, many bishops and cardinals of old did not practice what they preached at all.

EDIT: Sorry for the triple post, at the speed answers were being written, I was sure there would be another one already.
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Relevance is a prerequisite for cleverness. ~ LHS_2012
JUS: 4382-1831-2782 Brawl: 4382 7053 3006
#189dudupupuPosted 10/5/2012 10:22:10 AM
Grandy12 posted...
dudupupu posted...
Am I suggesting they are all "right?" No, because as the last poster said, people twist things for self-gain (Matthew 24:5), and it would naturally follow that some ideas are injections of personal bias and such.


What if some other religion is correct, and christianity is the one that got twisted?


Then so be it.

However, and I want you to research this if truly interested rather than bash my coming statement, the Christian message is the only one that conforms to 1) what we perceive to be reality, and 2) what we intuitively know in our hearts to be truth as well as what we expect.

Specifically, I know all human life to be of intrinsic value - sinners and righteous alike, but Islam would forcefully remove that value in light of conflicting faiths. Likewise, I don't buy into the Essene's (exclusive Jewish sect) method of dealing with exclusive birth rights to the Kingdom of Heaven. Likewise, I don't buy think any of use intuitively buy into things like ritualistic dancing or chanting or fornicating or killing. God's no fool. He has constructed us in such a way as to give us all the necessary ingredients to find Him. Where there is obstacle, He gives us strength; where there is a limit to documentation, He gives us a knowing mind and heart.

The message of Christ is the only which I find to be consistent with what I think we all intuitively know to be truth (equality, all sinners, love > material wealth, conversion comes through love, not force, etc.).
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Jesus the Christ - the perpetual novelty through which humankind can remain constantly challenged to think, love, and, ultimately, LIVE. We are born dead.
#190Grandy12Posted 10/5/2012 10:23:34 AM
dudupupu posted...
However, and I want you to research this if truly interested rather than bash my coming statement, the Christian message is the only one that conforms to 1) what we perceive to be reality, and 2) what we intuitively know in our hearts to be truth as well as what we expect.


No offense, but that is exactly what eveyone from the other religions told me as well.
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Relevance is a prerequisite for cleverness. ~ LHS_2012
JUS: 4382-1831-2782 Brawl: 4382 7053 3006