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General consensus of Final Fantasy XIII?

#241IHeartMetroidPosted 12/14/2012 7:14:04 AM
Why is this point even being argued? Character development is a good thing, and FFX and FFXII both have it for all their main characters.
#242abnergoinbigPosted 12/14/2012 7:16:45 AM
I liked it and the sequel.
#243AlavardPosted 12/14/2012 7:19:35 AM
Kage_AM2 posted...
It does some good things, some bad things, some so and so things. Good: music, graphics. So and so: Battle system. Bad: Story, dialogue, exploration, replay value.


This is pretty much how I feel about it. I actually really liked the battle system, but eventually came to the conclusion that there's too much wasted potential in it.

I don't even think the story would be so bad if it didn't zig-zag back and forth.
#244SightoPosted 12/14/2012 7:29:35 AM
IHeartMetroid posted...
Saying FFXII doesn't have character development is just patently ridiculous.

Let's go about with Fran, for instance.

This was a character that was declared to have "no development" in the game, right?

Yet-

She has an extensive backstory with Baltheir. She gets an entire pair of large regions in the game devoted to her character (Feywood and Golmore). She has a large story arc that not only spans a main portion of the quest but also a number of sidequests devoted to her. Her particular sensitivity to Mist also comes into play in key points in the game. She also plays a key role in the game finale.

So... yeah.


Well said. They're probably just complaining because they're comparing it to FF13, which blew any development 12 had out of the water. That's to be expected though. FF12 focused on freedom and exploration, while FF13 focused on the meat & potatoes of the series - battle system, story, music, and character development.
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#245jaycdanyPosted 12/14/2012 7:40:53 AM
I liked this game because of the story, graphics, challenges, characters, etc.

I sold it because of the frikkin treasure hunter trophy im missing for the platinum I've never gotten.. lol..
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#246tiornysPosted 12/14/2012 8:00:19 AM
This repost seems relevant:
tiornys posted...
BigAl519 posted...
Did you really just say that...... How is a game that you can beat by literally spamming auto attack and potions considered "hard and strategic"?

So...are you saying that you never shifted paradigms? Because if you did, you engaged in strategy beyond spamming auto-attack and potions.

I'll forgive you for overstating your case, because you do have a point. It is possible to use a pretty limited set of battle strategies and beat FFXIII. If you rely on a preset script of Relentless Assault/Diversity/Combat Clinic/Evened Odds with lots of Auto-battle, you'll probably find the game rather boring. Especially since you almost certainly will engage in a rather liberal amount of grinding to handle various fights.

Of course, I would argue that the same holds true of FFXII, X, IX, VIII (but be careful how you grind), VII, VI, IV, and I (and probably II, III and V but I have limited experience there). And if that's your primary approach to RPGs, I'd argue that, in fact, XIII is harder, because it puts much stricter limits on your ability to use grinding tactics to amplify your raw power relative to the enemies that you fight.

That's not really the point either. To fully appreciate XIII's combat system, you have to accept its conceit that mere victory is not the sole metric by which to measure battle performance, and strive for efficient victory. If you do that (and get past the stiff initial learning curve) you'll find that combat performance in XIII is extremely sensitive to the quality of your combat strategy and tactical execution. X shares this merit, incidentally (the tactical execution part is physically easier in X due to the nature of the battle systems), and it's a lot of why X and XIII are two of my three favorite FF games.

To restate, a small improvement in your battle strategy will result in a small improvement in your battle performance (as measured in most cases by the efficiency of your victory). A large improvement in strategy will yield a large improvement in your results (in many cases allowing results that would be considered impossible by a neophyte).

That's why XIII is strategic. As for difficulty, well, I'm not sure I would call XIII hard to beat. But then, I wouldn't call any FF game since the original NES entry all that hard to beat. None of the later entries in the series (including the FF1 remake) have required anything near the level of resource management skills you needed to conquer the final dungeon with enough juice left for taking out Chaos (at least, you needed those skills if you wanted to do it without an exorbitant amount of grinding).

But I will say that XIII is harder than most entries in a couple of key ways. First, it's harder on an individual fight basis as a direct consequence of the decision to cut most of the out of battle resource management. You're at full power going into every battle, and the battles are designed to challenge you under that assumption. Every previous title has carried the expectation that you couldn't afford to bring your full resources to bear in every fight--and has had encounter balance broken by the fact that you could, in fact, do so. Second, as mentioned earlier, it has strict limitations on grinding. You can still gain a ton of power through grinding in XIII, but this tactic is neither as straightforward nor as overpowering as it is in most earlier titles. Even with grinding, various well known boss fights require a certain degree of strategic acumen.

So, in terms of battles and bosses (as opposed to, say, exploration and puzzles), yeah, I have no problem with calling XIII relatively hard and highly strategic. So much so that I'm well over a thousand hours of playtime, still challenging myself (currently by undertaking all missions without touching stage 9 of the Crystarium) and still learning stuff I didn't know.
#247tiornysPosted 12/14/2012 8:00:33 AM
To elaborate on that post a bit, let's start by getting an explicit definition of "strategy" out there. I'll quote from Wikipedia's article on military strategy:

Wikipedia posted...
The task of strategy is an efficient use of the available resources for the achievement of the main goal. Tactics is the tool to implement strategy, and is subordinated to the main goal of strategy.
Detailing it further, strategy is all about gaining (or being prepared to gain) a position of advantage over adversaries or best exploiting emerging possibilities. As there is always an element of uncertainty about the future, strategy is more about a set of options ("strategic choices") than a fixed plan.

When I refer to strategy in the context of FFXIII, I am referring to the choices you make outside of battle that impact your ability to fight during battle. This includes your team composition, your paradigm deck, your weapon selections, your accessory selections, and your choice of leader.

When I refer to tactics in the context of FFXIII, I am referring to the indirect tactical control you exercise over your non-leader party members by deciding which paradigm to use at any given point in the battle and which enemies you target with what kind of abilities, and to the direct tactical control you have over the party leader through manual command entry.

AXKSION, if I'm interpreting your complaints correctly, you are most dissatisfied with two primary features: the lack of direct tactical control over your non-leader characters, and the perceived lack of difficulty given the success of a fairly basic strategic approach to the game.

Starting with the second complaint, I'll reiterate the point made above: every FF game yields to similarly basic strategic approaches. The question for any FF is not "how do I possibly beat this game?" but "where can I gain edges, and how much of an advantage can I gain?" For most FF games, the answer is "these broken abilities" and "huge advantages if I abuse this stuff, small advantages otherwise". In FFXIII, the answers are "by improving my strategy and tactics" and "huge advantages once I get good enough".

This leads me to your first complaint, which I'm afraid I can't respect. You see, your posts have clearly indicated a lack of appreciation for the advantages that can be gained by direct tactical control over your leader. This is clearly indicated here:

AXKSION posted...
Even if you manually input your commands, it's not really different from using the auto battle. I know, I have tried it. Plus there is no way to directly control all 3 characters at once, so it sucks.

You may have tried it, but you clearly failed to understand it. So I am not at all surprised that you also don't appreciate the indirect tactical control you have over the non-leaders.

What advantages can you gain? A full explanation would probably take this already ridiculous reply to 4 or 5 posts. Instead, I'll direct you to the outline here (with some illustration later in that thread): http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/619315-final-fantasy-xiii-2/63124244#31

Next I'd like to address these complaints:

webbc99 posted...
The huge horrible problem with the battle system is the ridiculously high damaging attacks that the enemy pulls out, which require you to switch to defensive/healing paradigms for about 4 seconds every 2 minutes. So you can't even just skip through the battles, you have to pay full attention at all times.

Thirdly, Stagger is the only real mechanic in the game, and makes every fight take absolutely ages. Also (imo) removes any sense of power growth in your characters, as they do F all damage outside of Stagger anyway.
#248tiornysPosted 12/14/2012 8:01:34 AM
Stagger the only mechanic? No wonder people think there's no strategy. Allow me to quote myself again:

tiornys posted...
FFXIII has no MP, very few limited abilities, and operates on the premise that your characters will be at full strength and capability entering every battle. You can't implement high damage moves similar to those in the older games given that premise (at least, not without breaking the system), because there's nothing to even hint at a balancing factor. So FFXIII uses different methods for increasing damage, methods which cost varying amounts of the game's primary constraint: time.

If they had only given us one way to increase damage, the system would have been extremely stale. Indeed, this is the source of many complaints about the game; people who don't explore the system are likely to view staggering as the only method of winning fights, and that makes for a very one-dimensional approach to battles, with the only real decision being "what do I target next?".

Luckily, they implemented numerous damage multipliers; the chain gauge has the highest potential, but it also takes the most time to reach that potential, and the shortest window for exploiting that potential. Buffs are the quickest and last longest, but are also the least powerful in isolation. Debuffs occupy a middle ground, and have some powerful interactions with buffs and with the chain gauge. On top of that, you have different Role assigments, and one of those roles--Commando--is dedicated to high damage, and therefore gets various built-in damage bonuses.

So now we have strategy again. Is it better to take the time to stagger an enemy, or is it faster to throw on a couple of buffs and go all out Commando? Should I bother with debuffing this enemy, and if so, should I debuff before or after I stagger it? Etc.

However, a necessary consequence of having so many systems for multiplying damage, is that you must consider how and whether those systems interact. In FFXIII, they decided to allow almost all the systems to interact with each other. This increases the strategic scope of the game; if they didn't interact, it would just be a Rock/Paper/Scissors game. This enemy is weakest to buffs, that enemy is weakest to stagger, etc.

With interaction, the correct strategic and tactical decisions depend on your base power level. A low level team can take down enemies far above their development by exploiting the full range of damage multiplication, while a high level team can stomp on those same enemies with only one or two of the multiplication systems. Teams at intermediary power levels have interesting cost/benefit decisions to make in order to optimize the use of their time.

So we have four or five systems of damage multiplication that all compound with each other. The more of them you employ, the greater the cumulative effect is, since each one amplifies the effects of the previous system.

Now, that doesn't address the defensive side, but a similarly tiered system exists there. Defense starts with HP and with damage reduction accessories. Then you have an active defensive role (SEN), a reactive defensive role (MED), a proactive defensive role (SAB debilitations), and defense through disruption via the Cut/Keep and Lift mechanics (see the GMG if you have no clue what these are: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/928790-final-fantasy-xiii/faqs/59246). This is plenty to avoid being "required" to do any one thing...but you do have to pay attention. Since when was that a bad thing?

There were plenty of other people who made similarly misguided claims about FFXIII's battle system, but these seemed representative. I'll just close by noting that the "FFXIII is just spam X Auto-battle" argument is roughly equivalent to the "FFXII plays itself due to gambits" argument, with approximately the same amount of merit.

t~
#249IzzythewinnerPosted 12/14/2012 8:03:04 AM
the fact: terrible game
bad gamers opinion : it is a good game.

avoid this game at all costs, if you see some one defend this game, they are a bad gamer, and should not be playing video games.
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#250killakPosted 12/14/2012 8:04:05 AM
From: tiornys | #247
You may have tried it, but you clearly failed to understand it. So I am not at all surprised that you also don't appreciate the indirect tactical control you have over the non-leaders.


Yeah, he doesn't get it at all. he's part of the 'press x to win' mob.

paradigm switching at crucial times and using that spell, libra, to identify weaknesses and thus affecting the spells and attacks chosen by auto battle, plus the staggering and juggling mechanic.....create something far deeper than 'press x to win'

Greer complains that you can't control the party, and I can honestly say that If i want to be buffed.....i get buffed. If i want to be healed...i get healed and if i want them to attack a robot with lightning.......TA DA... they do it.
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