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Why do people say FFXIII is just "mash x" ?

#131digidevilwilPosted 1/26/2013 8:39:22 PM
tiornys posted...
RPG maniac87 posted...
I disagree. Auto-battle is there to handle the portion that requires little-to-no thinking. Things like exploiting elemental weaknesses. Leaving time for the player to concentrate on what's really important - timing/cancels/formations/enemy condition.

Good points, although once you become adept at handling those, manual entry adds a whole new layer of available tactics and strategies.

kupo1705 posted...
Sighto posted...
There's way more to the battle system than selecting the attacks. That's one of the least important parts, hence auto-battle.
How this continues to allude some people is embarrassing.


Changing paradigms, so deep.

It's certainly capable of more depth than most RPGs.

t~


Btw people shouldn't be ashamed of autobattle. The best player is the player who know when to manually input, use auto battle, use repeat commands, etc. manual inputs and auto battle both have a place in optimal play.
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#132king_maddenPosted 1/26/2013 10:42:24 PM
tiornys posted...
king_madden posted...
sure you can say that i didnt have to take the easy route and do auto battle, but if i wouldve put too much thought into it the game wouldve been a breeze. i may have died twice the whole game, both towards the end.

Sure, the main storyline would have been easier, but you could have easily challenged yourself through optional content. Like killing Juggernaut on your first trip through Mah'habara, or taking out the Adamanchelids for their Gold Nuggets soon after reaching the Steppe for the first time. Or completing the Faultwarrens before leaving chapter 11. Etc.

t~



there was no reason for me to try anything more difficult, the combat and just the game in general wasnt interesting enough to make me want to take on tougher challenges, like i said I was only running through the game, just to finish the story, if it wouldve got to a point that was actually tough or made me die a lot I wouldnt have finished it because it wasnt that engaging for me. The only games where I want to seek out stronger enemies and find all the little secrets and unlock bosses are games where I love the fighting, or just love playing the game in general.
#133tiornysPosted 1/26/2013 10:52:48 PM
digidevilwil posted...
It requires brainpower to apply reflexes and hand eye coordination. This is why the JRPG fanbase is so looked down on. They think everything real time and genres like FPS are mindless flail fests,

To be clear, there's a reason I qualified "brainpower" with "in isolation." I certainly don't think that anything realtime is a mindless flail fest, and I'm well aware that there's a great deal of strategy and tactics available to many FPS games, fighting games, etc. I'm not sure if you thought I was implying otherwise, or if you just used my comment as a jumping off point for this.

when in reality applying top level skill in those games/genres requires far more brainpower than any turn based rpg ever will.

But I don't agree with this. Applying top level skill in any game requires a great deal of brainpower, regardless of how easy or difficult it is to coast by in that game if you're so inclined.

I'm not sure where taste and comprehension came into play.

It sounded to me like you were (and are) insulting the series because of its accessibility, and in the post I quoted, you hadn't acknowledged the scope for high-level play that exists. That's the attitude I was responding to. I don't think accessibility is a reason to look down on a game, and I don't like elitist attitudes anywhere. Preferring games that require skill as opposed to allowing for skill doesn't make you "better" (nor does the opposite make me better); it just means that you look for a different experience than others. And while the possession of a higher level of skill at something does make you "better" in a literal sense, it doesn't mean you're a better person in general, nor does it justify looking down on someone with lesser skills.

You may like those style of games more, sure, but they are just as mindless. Just because everything is slowed down to a point that your mind can comprehend each action doesn't make it any more strategic, as it's very possible to manage the importance of each little attack that goes off in XIII as well.

And now I'm not sure what we're talking about. Where did you get the idea that I prefer combat in older FF games to FFXIII? I'm one of the most vocal supporters of FFXIII's combat on this site.

Btw people shouldn't be ashamed of autobattle. The best player is the player who know when to manually input, use auto battle, use repeat commands, etc. manual inputs and auto battle both have a place in optimal play.

Certainly. Auto-battle is a very useful tool in the hands of an expert player. I thought that was implicit; if you know the game well enough to take advantage of manual entry, then you can predict what Auto-battle is going to do, and therefore use it when it's going to produce the command string you desire.

t~
#134XImperialDragonPosted 1/26/2013 11:05:03 PM
You can't use auto battle to 5 star a decent number of the missions, nor will auto battle allow you to beat a Long Gui. By the seventh or eighth chapter or so, it was just easiest for me to enter the commands manually so I could take full advantage of Highwind, Army of One, that kind of thing.
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#135tiornysPosted 1/26/2013 11:07:37 PM
king_madden posted...
there was no reason for me to try anything more difficult, the combat and just the game in general wasnt interesting enough to make me want to take on tougher challenges, like i said I was only running through the game, just to finish the story, if it wouldve got to a point that was actually tough or made me die a lot I wouldnt have finished it because it wasnt that engaging for me. The only games where I want to seek out stronger enemies and find all the little secrets and unlock bosses are games where I love the fighting, or just love playing the game in general.

So let me break down my understanding of what you're saying:
--You found that you were able to win battles with a very simple strategy
--Winning with that strategy didn't engage you, and you therefore weren't enjoying the combat
--Because you weren't enjoying combat, you didn't seek out challenges that might have forced you to learn new strategies

Do you see why I think this is partially a self-created issue? No, the game doesn't force you to delve into the combat system, but it does offer tremendous scope for engaging, enjoyable play if you do delve into it.

It doesn't bother me that you chose to ride a simple strategy. It doesn't bother me that you chose to complete the game without exploring the combat system. What bothers me is the fact that you have the nerve to criticize the depth and complexity of a combat system that you didn't bother to explore.

If your experience was poor, I'm sorry for that. I've offered my thoughts on ways you might choose to improve that experience if you were so inclined. But don't try to invalidate the experience of myself and others by insisting that your experience was somehow forced upon you.

t~
#136king_maddenPosted 1/27/2013 12:47:57 AM
tiornys posted...
king_madden posted...
there was no reason for me to try anything more difficult, the combat and just the game in general wasnt interesting enough to make me want to take on tougher challenges, like i said I was only running through the game, just to finish the story, if it wouldve got to a point that was actually tough or made me die a lot I wouldnt have finished it because it wasnt that engaging for me. The only games where I want to seek out stronger enemies and find all the little secrets and unlock bosses are games where I love the fighting, or just love playing the game in general.

So let me break down my understanding of what you're saying:
--You found that you were able to win battles with a very simple strategy
--Winning with that strategy didn't engage you, and you therefore weren't enjoying the combat
--Because you weren't enjoying combat, you didn't seek out challenges that might have forced you to learn new strategies

Do you see why I think this is partially a self-created issue? No, the game doesn't force you to delve into the combat system, but it does offer tremendous scope for engaging, enjoyable play if you do delve into it.

It doesn't bother me that you chose to ride a simple strategy. It doesn't bother me that you chose to complete the game without exploring the combat system. What bothers me is the fact that you have the nerve to criticize the depth and complexity of a combat system that you didn't bother to explore.

If your experience was poor, I'm sorry for that. I've offered my thoughts on ways you might choose to improve that experience if you were so inclined. But don't try to invalidate the experience of myself and others by insisting that your experience was somehow forced upon you.

t~



please show me where I invalidated your experience? I said the combat was simple and nothing special, I could care less how you felt about it, its my opinion. the combat wasnt deep no matter how you slice it. just because you had to think of a different strategy for "harder" opponents doesnt make the combat deep. there were 3-4 classes, all still capable of similar things, and once you got a character that specialized in one it wouldnt be too often that you switched him/her out of it.

it was hit break, hit some more, and finish, rinse and repeat. please tell me what you found to be so deep and complex about this system? that was pretty much the key to fighting most things.

if something is already easy when it requires little thought, once you start actually game planning it becomes laughable.
#137RyuuHou25Posted 1/27/2013 12:50:17 AM
Star Ocean Last Hope has far more depth than FF 13 combat wise.
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#138RoxasANobodyPosted 1/27/2013 1:20:26 AM(edited)
king_madden posted...
it was hit break, hit some more, and finish, rinse and repeat. please tell me what you found to be so deep and complex about this system? that was pretty much the key to fighting most things.


If you whittle down gameplay systems like that, they will all eventually become shallow and weak. Even huge strategy games like Civilization can be broken down into simple strategies. The depth is immediately eliminated once you adjust to the system provided to you.

EDIT: An example of this is like, "Don't trust Napoleon because that bastard will fight you the moment your troops leave." Once you figure out these tips and tricks, all the things that you would consider "depth" would be void.
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#139tiornysPosted 1/27/2013 1:54:28 AM
king_madden posted...
please show me where I invalidated your experience?

I don't need to. You demonstrate it again with your next sentence:

I said the combat was simple and nothing special, I could care less how you felt about it, its my opinion. the combat wasnt deep no matter how you slice it.

Ah, there we are. Apparently, my perception of depth and complexity is invalid, because you didn't see it. Again, this is keeping in mind that you deliberately chose to not investigate the combat past a very basic level.

And then you wonder why I object to your "reasoning."

it was hit break, hit some more, and finish, rinse and repeat. please tell me what you found to be so deep and complex about this system? that was pretty much the key to fighting most things.

I already addressed this shallow take on the battle system in post 99. Stagger/kill tactics are only "key" to fighting if you ignore the other tools in the system.

But sure, let's do this again. FFXIII offers 4 distinct damage multipliers that are under player control: COM role, chain gauge, offensive buffs, and offensive debuffs.

The COM role offers a static multiplier that grows as you gain role levels and add more COMs, with some additional situational multipliers. It's easy to activate--shift to a paradigm with COMs--with the disadvantage that your COMs aren't doing other things.

The Chain Gauge offers a variable multiplier that ranges from nonexistent to x9.99. Maintaining it pre-stagger requires frequent attacks, else the gauge will reset. Staggering an enemy offers numerous bonuses, but causes the chain gauge to reset itself after 45 seconds or less. This multiplier is potentially the largest in the game, but it also takes the most time to set up and has the shortest period of maximum potential.

The offensive buffs Bravery and Faith each offer a x1.4 damage multiplie. This is the weakest available multiplier aside from situational abilities like Adrenaline. These buffs are very easy to acquire, and are long lasting. En-spells offer a x2 multiplier to non-elemental attacks against enemies with elemental weaknesses. When applicable, they greatly enhance COM damage.

The offensive debuffs Deprotect and Deshell each offer a x1.89 damage multiplier, which is stronger than most buffs but weaker than the chain gauge. They are generally easier to use than the chain gauge, but not as easy to use as buffs. They last longer than a stagger, but don't typically last as long as buffs. Imperil does not directly offer extra damage, but against enemies with neutral elemental affinities, Imperil can combine with an En-spell to double COM damage.

Each of these multipliers compounds with the other multipliers. The more of them you employ, the more powerful the cumulative effect.

The existence of these different ways to multiply your damage gives you options. They allow you to evaluate your strength, the enemy's resilience, and make cost/benefit decisions on the amount of time needed to activate a multiplier vs. the amount that multiplier contributes to winning. If you are stronger than an enemy, especially if that enemy is weak against an element, it's often sufficient to toss on a couple of key buffs and destroy them with Commandos without even bothering to chain. If you are much weaker, you can combine all of the above to multiply your damage by more than x100. And for parties of moderate strength, the cost/benefit decisions become quite interesting: is it worth the time it takes to inflict Deprotect? Is it worth staggering at 400%, or is 200% chain more than enough? Etc.

Those decisions are the essence of strategy. They don't represent the full extent of strategic depth available (I'm short on characters), but they do serve to demonstrate certain deficiencies in your critique.

t~
#140king_maddenPosted 1/27/2013 2:19:27 AM
lmao tiornys why is it so hard for you to just accept the fact that I found it shallow and way too easy, and you didnt?

why does it have to be a matter of someone invalidating your response? my opinion was asked I gave it, I could careless what your opinion is, because ive played the game beat it, and have no plans of going back. you can say the combat was whatever you thought it was, and thats fine, I dont care. I didnt think it was special, and you apparently do, ok, bottom line end of story.

all of that you just typed is fine and dandy, but for the vast majority of the game none of it is necessary to know, or exactly take advantage of. with how simple they made the combat any random person with little knowledge of all the buffs and debuffs and certain percentages can beat the game. I can break down a simple card game by each little rule and note, but that doesnt make it complex to people who have been playing games like that for years.

auto battle made a super easy game just easy. you could get through most of the game just using it, if you wanted to do it manually you would just win more impressively.

back to my main point though, my opinion is different from yours, dont take it personally, get over it.