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Guns don't kill people. Video games do. Really CNN?

#171Stanger5150Posted 2/4/2013 12:18:12 AM
VanderZoo posted...
jubjub360 posted...
My point is, is that your argument is wrong. I've proven it. I've also proven that you can't keep your arguments right. First you say it's psychological, then you say it's philosophical.


lol, I'll take that as a no explanation then.

And my argument has been consistent, my basis has been philosophical. I only ever mentioned psychology in response to stranger who brought it up for some reason.


I brought it up because philosophy is not a science.
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#172ReDDevil2112Posted 2/4/2013 12:20:38 AM
From: VanderZoo | #169
How would you argue you have control over your thoughts if it's being made at a subconscious level while you're unconscious? I'd like to hear how you think that's possible.


First of all, you still never addressed the fact that some thoughts and decisions being subconscious does not suddenly mean everything we think and do is subconscious. That makes no sense. So your argument falls apart right there.

But if you're unconscious, well its sort of difficult to have free will because the part of your mind that would handle that isnt really around. So in your sleep, you act out of control (for example, sleep walking). But when you're awake, you DO have control over these things. That's why people dont sleepwalk while awake (aside from hypnotic/trance states, but that's an altered state of consciousness; in all cases your conscious mind is compromised).

When you are conscious, you still have control over your actions, even the subconscious ones. So I might randomly, subconsciously think to do something, but then catch myself and say "what am I doing? I shouldnt do that", and not actually do it. If I really had no free will and was just driven by subconscious process, I shouldnt be able to do that.
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#173Stanger5150Posted 2/4/2013 12:22:48 AM
Also, whether we have control over subconscious decisions or not has nothing to do with conscious decisions. Regarding subconscious decisions though, I'm a lucid dreamer, meaning I have control of my dreams when I choose to. Sometimes I let them play out, and sometimes I take control and have a little fun. So yes, I have control of my subconscious decisions.
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#174Stanger5150Posted 2/4/2013 12:24:55 AM
And I'm still waiting for you to prove unicorns don't exist.
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#175ReDDevil2112Posted 2/4/2013 12:27:12 AM
Yes, I forgot all about lucid dreaming. Great example.

Also, to add on to my previous post and address an earlier example against free will:
As for VanderZoos opponents: You do know that there are studies that show you're brain makes decisions before you're even aware of it. For example: You're sitting on the couch with an opened can of soda on a table next to you. You're brain starts the process of firing neurons to move your arm before you even say to yourself "hey, i'm thirsty. I think I'll have some of this nice delicious soda."

Your body knows it's thirsty before your mind does, perhaps, and you begin to reach for the drink. But then you process the thought and realize that this drink belongs to someone else. You dont drink the soda.

Suddenly, this action that you supposedly decided on without even realizing it never actually happened. Majin already pointed this out, but I just want to reiterate it.
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#176jubjub360Posted 2/4/2013 12:30:22 AM
VanderZoo posted...
jubjub360 posted...
My point is, is that your argument is wrong. I've proven it. I've also proven that you can't keep your arguments right. First you say it's psychological, then you say it's philosophical.


lol, I'll take that as a no explanation then.

And my argument has been consistent, my basis has been philosophical. I only ever mentioned psychology in response to stranger who brought it up for some reason.


You not accepting being wrong is no explanation? You've proven you didn't understand my original post so... how did you come to no explanation?

Wrong. Your original basis was psychological. Would you like me to bring up every quote that is psychological based and not philosophical?

By the way: Philosophy is ideas and ways of thinking. Psychology is based on facts and experimentation.
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#177Stanger5150Posted 2/4/2013 12:33:43 AM
jubjub360 posted...
VanderZoo posted...
jubjub360 posted...
My point is, is that your argument is wrong. I've proven it. I've also proven that you can't keep your arguments right. First you say it's psychological, then you say it's philosophical.


lol, I'll take that as a no explanation then.

And my argument has been consistent, my basis has been philosophical. I only ever mentioned psychology in response to stranger who brought it up for some reason.


You not accepting being wrong is no explanation? You've proven you didn't understand my original post so... how did you come to no explanation?

Wrong. Your original basis was psychological. Would you like me to bring up every quote that is psychological based and not philosophical?

By the way: Philosophy is ideas and ways of thinking. Psychology is based on facts and experimentation.


True... that's the reason I brought up psychology. I had a predetermined brain fart when I responded to him last time.

Goddamn destiny... not letting my brain think the way I want it to.
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PSN- BlackRain8782
Now playing: Far Cry 3, Jak and Daxter, Mega Man X Collection, Yo! Noid, Batman Returns, Jaws"
#178jubjub360Posted 2/4/2013 12:36:15 AM
Stanger5150 posted...
jubjub360 posted...
VanderZoo posted...
jubjub360 posted...
My point is, is that your argument is wrong. I've proven it. I've also proven that you can't keep your arguments right. First you say it's psychological, then you say it's philosophical.


lol, I'll take that as a no explanation then.

And my argument has been consistent, my basis has been philosophical. I only ever mentioned psychology in response to stranger who brought it up for some reason.


You not accepting being wrong is no explanation? You've proven you didn't understand my original post so... how did you come to no explanation?

Wrong. Your original basis was psychological. Would you like me to bring up every quote that is psychological based and not philosophical?

By the way: Philosophy is ideas and ways of thinking. Psychology is based on facts and experimentation.


True... that's the reason I brought up psychology. I had a predetermined brain fart when I responded to him last time.

Goddamn destiny... not letting my brain think the way I want it to.


Damn that damned destiny and it's philosophics.
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#179nintendogamer13Posted 2/4/2013 12:43:00 AM
what the hell are y'all talking about. 0_0

smh
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#180VanderZooPosted 2/4/2013 12:45:29 AM
Stanger5150 posted...
I brought it up because philosophy is not a science.


I know, I never said it was. Even if I had, what would psychology have to do with anything?

ReDDevil2112 posted...
First of all, you still never addressed the fact that some thoughts and decisions being subconscious does not suddenly mean everything we think and do is subconscious. That makes no sense. So your argument falls apart right there.


The argument only falls apart if you prove they're not all made subconsciously. We are already aware many actions and thoughts, and things like who you're attracted to aren't choices, they're made without our rational brain having a say in the matter.

Stanger5150 posted...
Also, whether we have control over subconscious decisions or not has nothing to do with conscious decisions. Regarding subconscious decisions though, I'm a lucid dreamer, meaning I have control of my dreams when I choose to. Sometimes I let them play out, and sometimes I take control and have a little fun. So yes, I have control of my subconscious decisions.


A lucid dream doesn't mean you make decisions, it just means you're aware you're dreaming, you're a viewer of your own mind. But that's a little murkier, almost a different topic.

ReDDevil2112 posted...
When you are conscious, you still have control over your actions, even the subconscious ones. So I might randomly, subconsciously think to do something, but then catch myself and say "what am I doing? I shouldnt do that", and not actually do it. If I really had no free will and was just driven by subconscious process, I shouldnt be able to do that.


Well that's where predetermination comes into play. The rational brain can have a say, and override base instincts. Like you might be physically attracted to a person, but rationally you go for the girl whose less attractive but a nicer person.

But that doesn't prove free will, it just means the experiences in your life leading up to that point have made you more predisposed to 'choose' personality over looks. And the same question I raised before persists: if you're more inclined to choosing one option over the other, then how could you have chosen the other?

They only way a different outcome would occur is if something in your life leading up until that point had been different. So that's not free will at all. You see now why logically and philosophically, determinism makes sense.
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