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Has Kingdom Hearts gotten better?

#91AputiPosted 2/18/2013 1:08:15 PM
The gameplay and Disney aspect (even though it has been set aside) is the only reason to keep on playing the series. Plus the nostalgia factor that I had for these games.
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#92FenderMasterPosted 2/18/2013 1:24:26 PM
Flare1721 posted...
FenderMaster posted...
And Sora was just a heart without a body from Hollow Bastion til the end of KH2? Well Nomura sure didn't do a good job clarifying that do his audience. Then you tell me that even after Sora regained his body, formerly occupied by Roxas or Ventus heart, that he still had the ability to transcend time, even though the games rules clearly state only a heart without a body can do that?

Good grief... If you like this kind of stuff then great, enjoy it, but if you can't understand why people have trouble swallowing this underexplained drawn out story, with so many rules governing how a person splits into different forms, inconsistent time travel rules, deux ex machina with Micky and Axel saving the day, and the recycling of worlds in different forms, (how many different forms of Traverse town have we visited now? 4?), then there's really no point having this conversation.

I would have thought that even the most die hard KH fanboy would at least understand that this is a really big ask, and that Nomura doesn't explain the rules fundamental to understanding and making sense of the plot very well at all. Some may say that he intends for the games to be confusing, or that players do a load of homework to piece it together across the series, but this in itself is an example of bad direction if true.


Maybe some people like a complex story. I mean look at MGS. People love it and for good reason. I do understand why people dont get it. But dont expect to get it if your not going to read up on the story. I consider a good story like a test. I have to read it several times over to understand the entire picture. Maybe thats why I can understand it better then some. And I do this for all my games.

So many rules for different forms? So we have Sora, Roxas, Namine, Xion. And the time travel rules are layed out. How are the inconsistent? Theres no dues ex machina its all explained to you. That Axel is reformed due to his Nobody and Heartless being defeated. But I agree that Nomura could go into better detail in explaining his details instead of reusing some Disney worlds.


MGS was heavily criticised for its story telling in 2 and 4, and the nanomachines explanation is pretty much a deus ex machina "if anything seems like it makes no sense, then a wizard did it!"

When a person becomes heartless, they produce a nobody, that's fine. Why is Soras nobody nothing like him, why is he actually Ventus nobody, why did he produce a second nobody who is also nothing like him? Xion is fine, she's a puppet housing Sora's memories as he slept in an effort to create a controllable keyblade wielder. Why is it that after Sora stopped being just a heart (which Nomura didn't explain), that he can still time travel even though only beings of heart can time travel? This is a plot hole. Nomura may yet explain it, but so far his explanations are just as contrived as MGS nanomachines answer.

Why did Ventus nobody (Xehanort's apprentice) look like Sora when the two hadn't yet joined hearts when he was formed? If only hearts can time travel, then why did the nobodies time travel to meet up at the end of the game?

Xehanorts nobody calling himself Ansem was just unnecessary and didn't benefit the plot at all, it reeked of retcon.

I fundamentally disagree that a story should be a test. I like complex stories, I like Inception. Inception was a well told, paced and well directed story that challenged viewers. KH just challenges players, asks them to invest in a series spread across 4 different consoles, requiring them to retread stories and worlds (CoM, and Coded being the prime offenders).
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#93SigmaHacielPosted 2/18/2013 1:28:37 PM
God no.

If anything, the story got worse. The rest is alright, I guess, but we've taken a massive departure from making each Disney/Original world feel important.

In DDD, every world felt like filler because nothing happened that remotely influenced or changed the overall story of the game. Even if the combat is improving, what is the point of it in a series that started with more?
#94Flare1721Posted 2/18/2013 1:47:29 PM
When a person becomes heartless, they produce a nobody, that's fine. Why is Soras nobody nothing like him, why is he actually Ventus nobody, why did he produce a second nobody who is also nothing like him? Xion is fine, she's a puppet housing Sora's memories as he slept in an effort to create a controllable keyblade wielder. Why is it that after Sora stopped being just a heart (which Nomura didn't explain), that he can still time travel even though only beings of heart can time travel? This is a plot hole. Nomura may yet explain it, but so far his explanations are just as contrived as MGS nanomachines answer.

Sora had Kairi/Vens heart in him when he lost his body and became a heartless. Ven caused Roxas' appearance. So he looks like Ven instead of Sora. Namine is the same thing. Shes blonde due to Ven's heart being connect to Sora/Kairi.

To gain the ability to transcend time, you must first cast aside the flesh and become an existence of only a heart.
—Once you gain the ability, you can never lose the ability, even if you become complete again.

So when Roxas rejoined with him he never lost the ability. Same thing goes for all the Xehnorts.

Why did Ventus nobody (Xehanort's apprentice) look like Sora when the two hadn't yet joined hearts when he was formed? If only hearts can time travel, then why did the nobodies time travel to meet up at the end of the game?

When MX split Ventus into 2 in the beginning of the game he extracted all the evil from Vens heart forming Vanitas. Ven was damaged and thats when his heart went to Sora the first time. And since Vanitas was part of Ven, Vanitas started looking like Sora. Then at the end of the game he was damaged again. So he went to Sora a second time.

Ill answer the rest when I get back from work later tonight.

I also rushed this a bit so ill look it over and edit when im home.
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#95RayconPosted 2/18/2013 1:48:33 PM
SigmaHaciel posted...
God no.

If anything, the story got worse. The rest is alright, I guess, but we've taken a massive departure from making each Disney/Original world feel important.

In DDD, every world felt like filler because nothing happened that remotely influenced or changed the overall story of the game. Even if the combat is improving, what is the point of it in a series that started with more?


I never understood that about DDD either... if everything they did was in a dream, something Sora realizes multiple times throughout the story, then why did he bother going along with it every time?
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#96RagnoraokPosted 2/18/2013 5:45:42 PM
Flare1721 posted...

Maybe some people like a complex story. I mean look at MGS. People love it and for good reason. I do understand why people dont get it. But dont expect to get it if your not going to read up on the story. I consider a good story like a test. I have to read it several times over to understand the entire picture. Maybe thats why I can understand it better then some. And I do this for all my games.

So many rules for different forms? So we have Sora, Roxas, Namine, Xion. And the time travel rules are layed out. How are the inconsistent? Theres no dues ex machina its all explained to you. That Axel is reformed due to his Nobody and Heartless being defeated. But I agree that Nomura could go into better detail in explaining his details instead of reusing some Disney worlds.


a deus ex machina is an artificial plot device used to resolve a conflict. KH is full of that. Generally, it should be avoided, because it insults the audience and utterly ruins the point of experiencing the entire story just to have some "make a wish" outcome.

The time travel is the perfect example, because it was NEVER forshadowed, yet all of a sudden in 1 game it turns out to be the most important factor in KH. It was a deus ex machina ploy, because it was used for no other reason other than to bring back the different forms of Xehanort to serve as enemies because a single Xehanort is not epic enough to end an arc.

Kairi getting a keyblade is a deus ex machina. Sora being turned back into a person from Kairi's love is deus ex machina. LOL, Terra's armor still having consciousness is the largest deus ex machina for that fact that it makes no sense; the ONLY explanation is that it was his will. His will? How about using the will inside your body to fight the bad guy out instead of manifesting it into an armor and fighting him at his full power.

What else... oh yeah, Xion's very existence being used as a way to explain why Roxas can dual wield(which honestly needed no explanation).

The point is that KH, like most jrpg's, is heavily modeled after anime. I love anime....well I used to, but the greatest flaw of anime is that deus ex machina are heavily abused: random powerups, surviving impossible situations through luck on a regular basis, etc.

There are way more different forms. You have nobodies (org 13), unversed (BBS and Vanitias), heartless (Ansem SOD), clones(Xion, Rikureplica), dream monsters(DDD), intangible entites( Youngnort, Eraqus, and Ven's heart) and actual people. What makes this silly is that every new character seems to be a new form. Nomura is lazy and does not want to make distinct personalities and new characters....that is all.

The story is complex because of all of the deus ex machina, horrible pacing, misinformation, borderline retcons, poor explanations, and everything being explained by "the power of the heart/friendship/love."This series has virtually EVERY poor writing techniques writers should avoid. Saying that this is complex in a good way is an insult to EVERY writer struggling to come up with actual stories that make sense, and are complicated without breaking canon.

The worse pat...the UTTER WORSE PART.... is that this game is easy to comprehend. it really is if you do not question much, take everything for fact value and accept intangible answers for huge plot changes, such as "the power of the heart." However, the story is getting more stale and boring while getting more complex and nonsensical. Give me a nonsensical game, but at least keep it interesting.
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#97RagnoraokPosted 2/18/2013 5:50:17 PM
Flare1721 posted...
gameghy555 posted...
xPhoenixWrightx posted...
gameghy555 posted...
A lot of kH hard-ons still think the story is amazing and better than ever....but I think it's terrible.


How would you know enough to call it terrible, if you were just asking about if it was good or not? You haven't even played the later games.


My sentence structure is bad, but I was referring that I played some of the later games (like 358/2 Days).

I agree that some of the game play elements have gotten better, but I noticed the story went down hill. I was asking mainly about BBS and DDD. From what I'm getting there is nostalgia glasses everywhere.


Not true. BBS was great. Terra's story was awesome and the end MX explained a hell of alot. Same with Ventus. Now you know more about Roxas, why Sora is able to use 2 keyblades. Know the true purpose behind Org 13. Its not that I have the glasses on its the fact that your hate is clouding your judgement.


The game's only significance was introducing the new characters. Other than that, everything else was know: the real objective is STILL to open KH and we knew why Sora could use 2 Keyblades from KH2 already. Your optimism, or probably that you feel some sort of pride because you accept this convoluted mess is what is blinding you.
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#98RagnoraokPosted 2/18/2013 5:57:21 PM
Raycon posted...
Flare1721 posted...
gameghy555 posted...
xPhoenixWrightx posted...
gameghy555 posted...
A lot of kH hard-ons still think the story is amazing and better than ever....but I think it's terrible.


How would you know enough to call it terrible, if you were just asking about if it was good or not? You haven't even played the later games.


My sentence structure is bad, but I was referring that I played some of the later games (like 358/2 Days).

I agree that some of the game play elements have gotten better, but I noticed the story went down hill. I was asking mainly about BBS and DDD. From what I'm getting there is nostalgia glasses everywhere.


Not true. BBS was great. Terra's story was awesome and the end MX explained a hell of alot. Same with Ventus. Now you know more about Roxas, why Sora is able to use 2 keyblades. Know the true purpose behind Org 13. Its not that I have the glasses on its the fact that your hate is clouding your judgement.


I have to agree. BBS was a return to form after the messy presentation of KHII. Not exactly stellar, but still pretty good overall, I think. I came away pretty happy with it.


It was a return BECAUSE the story was virtually the exact same as in KH1 and 2. Aqua is Sora, Ventus is Kairi, and Terra is Riku. The core relationships were exactly the same as the ones I listed above. Hell, MX is Ansem SOD as well for turning Terra to the dark side. BBS was the game that sealed the final nail in the coffin for KH. After that, you pretty much knew that the story would continue to retocn and recycle development from previous games.

KH2 was messy, but at least it had some great new plot changes. The only flaws were that the nobodies had no emotions even though they were expressing it, and Kairi getting the keyblade. of course, ppl blame KH 2 for ruining the series even though BBS was the prequel that failed to address the new plot changes in a unique and interesting way, and it also failed to match the intensity of KH2 as well. Instead, we got a bland psp retelling of KH1 which made KH 2 look like a mess.
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#99XechsPosted 2/18/2013 5:58:59 PM
I liked the first one and BBS story wise, everything else is as you say TC.
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#100theofficefan99Posted 2/18/2013 6:05:42 PM
Ragnoraok posted...
Flare1721 posted...

Maybe some people like a complex story. I mean look at MGS. People love it and for good reason. I do understand why people dont get it. But dont expect to get it if your not going to read up on the story. I consider a good story like a test. I have to read it several times over to understand the entire picture. Maybe thats why I can understand it better then some. And I do this for all my games.

So many rules for different forms? So we have Sora, Roxas, Namine, Xion. And the time travel rules are layed out. How are the inconsistent? Theres no dues ex machina its all explained to you. That Axel is reformed due to his Nobody and Heartless being defeated. But I agree that Nomura could go into better detail in explaining his details instead of reusing some Disney worlds.


a deus ex machina is an artificial plot device used to resolve a conflict. KH is full of that. Generally, it should be avoided, because it insults the audience and utterly ruins the point of experiencing the entire story just to have some "make a wish" outcome.

The time travel is the perfect example, because it was NEVER forshadowed, yet all of a sudden in 1 game it turns out to be the most important factor in KH. It was a deus ex machina ploy, because it was used for no other reason other than to bring back the different forms of Xehanort to serve as enemies because a single Xehanort is not epic enough to end an arc.

Kairi getting a keyblade is a deus ex machina. Sora being turned back into a person from Kairi's love is deus ex machina. LOL, Terra's armor still having consciousness is the largest deus ex machina for that fact that it makes no sense; the ONLY explanation is that it was his will. His will? How about using the will inside your body to fight the bad guy out instead of manifesting it into an armor and fighting him at his full power.

What else... oh yeah, Xion's very existence being used as a way to explain why Roxas can dual wield(which honestly needed no explanation).

The point is that KH, like most jrpg's, is heavily modeled after anime. I love anime....well I used to, but the greatest flaw of anime is that deus ex machina are heavily abused: random powerups, surviving impossible situations through luck on a regular basis, etc.

There are way more different forms. You have nobodies (org 13), unversed (BBS and Vanitias), heartless (Ansem SOD), clones(Xion, Rikureplica), dream monsters(DDD), intangible entites( Youngnort, Eraqus, and Ven's heart) and actual people. What makes this silly is that every new character seems to be a new form. Nomura is lazy and does not want to make distinct personalities and new characters....that is all.

The story is complex because of all of the deus ex machina, horrible pacing, misinformation, borderline retcons, poor explanations, and everything being explained by "the power of the heart/friendship/love."This series has virtually EVERY poor writing techniques writers should avoid. Saying that this is complex in a good way is an insult to EVERY writer struggling to come up with actual stories that make sense, and are complicated without breaking canon.

The worse pat...the UTTER WORSE PART.... is that this game is easy to comprehend. it really is if you do not question much, take everything for fact value and accept intangible answers for huge plot changes, such as "the power of the heart." However, the story is getting more stale and boring while getting more complex and nonsensical. Give me a nonsensical game, but at least keep it interesting.


Hmmm...

I love you.
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